Primary child sat only with non-English speaking children

[evilharpy]

I don't know if IABU so grateful for any opinions.

Daughter is in second to last year of primary and has just gone back to school (we are in Ireland, before anyone says it's too early) and they've been allocated to their table groups. The class is maybe 1/4 ESL children, 3/4 native speakers. She is on one long table with only children who have fairly recently moved here and don't speak much English sitting beside or really anywhere near her, certainly not close enough to talk to or pair up with for activities. Several of them are from the same country so speak each other's language.

Now I have no problem at all with ESL children being sat with or paired up with native speakers, how else are they supposed to learn, and I know the purpose of lessons is not to sit chatting to your friends, but she is worried she will be isolated and that she will end up spending more time helping them than doing her own work. She is very academic, if that's relevant, but is not at all prone to drama or moaning so the fact that she has told me she's worried about it has made me concerned.

WIBU to raise this with the teacher and ask if the tables could be mixed up a bit? Has anyone had a similar experience and it's worked out ok for the child?

I think they mix them around a lot in year 5 so I don't think I'd say anything yet. Maybe see how it is in a month or so and if there is any evidence her learning is affected

Re comments about ESOL/EAL children overtaking others: yes, this often happens, but not always.

I can’t give specifics on here, but you get unwilling pupils from any demographic.

The one example that I will give is of the 14 yr old boy who came to us with no English. I knew a language similar to his, so tried that. No joy.

Two years later, he came to get his Leaver Form signed: “By the way, I understood every word you said in X language - I just didn’t want to do the work!”

In Ireland and the UK to an extent they use phonics to assess English ability. It means that unless you speak ilIrish or British English you will be placed as a non-English speaker even when from an English speaking school in India or Africa. In Ireland it’s also very common to see the kids of IT contractors who are working years ahead in other subjects suddenly get placed in lower sets when they first move, then when the kids learn to code switch they move instantly up to top/gifted sets.

Penultimate year of primary school is equivalent to Yr 6 in the UK. There's an extra year of primary in the Republic of Ireland.

It's a very long time since I was in primary school in Ireland but we did not move around AT ALL to different sets/tables for different lessons. Very much facing forward with very little interaction with neighbours at all.

@evilharpy - I would raise it with the teacher to say that your child is concerned that she will be excluded socially. How will it work in practice? Do they move around for different lessons and her placement is simply her start and of day table? If static then you'd appreciate if there was a better balance of native and non native speakers at the table.

I'd also encourage her to have a bash at Duolingo and learn some basic phrases so she can at least say hello and goodbye.

Your daughter has raised concerns about it. It's perfectly reasonable for you to now contact the teacher to discuss.

Wait and see how it goes. It’s understandable that your dd feels a bit worried about it but this is one of those times that you should encourage her to go into it positively and give it a good go, with reassurance that if it doesn’t work then you can think again.

Wow! This was a bit much.

Wrong. Most migrants come here as graduates from countries with a tested ability to speak English & their kids almost always know some English. They just can’t always speak it in a way state schools can test. It’s why well educated migrants from South Asia no longer like to bring their school aged kids to the UK and Ireland unless there’s a good local grammar/private - it all wastes time especially if the plan is for them to return

I would raise it with the teacher.

teachers often use well behaved, academically inclined girls
to facilitate learning for other students. It’s wrong and they need to be called out on it when it happens.

that may not be the case here, but if your daughter feels isolated and like her learning is being impacted, it is time to have a conversation. Go in willing to listen, but also be ready to advocate if needed.

Yes, another conversation with your daughter to try to determine the exact set up.
Then approach the teacher if you feel that the situation is adversely affecting your daughter.

Perhaps it depends whether tables are arranged by ability, or what the rationale is. If they’re there because they are of similar ability, I think you might have to encourage your daughter to try it for a while. If it’s random, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask if she can be near people she can interact more easily with.

If she tells you that she is unhappy about the arrangement then you need to fight this on your daughters behalf. It is unacceptable to put her on a table with no children that speak English as it can lead to isolation and a negative feeling towards school.

Seek clarification on the set up from the teacher first though.

For us it takes a good 6 months for children to listen and begin to really acquire language. The guidance is to throw children into the learning environment and not keep children within groups of their own language for learning.
We do not find there is any jump in EAL children and they are still monitored throughout primary as one of the usually lower performing groups along with White British boys. After language skills comes writing a much harder skill, maths is usually a more even playing field. But it is often difficult to identify SEND needs and other needs until some language is acquired.

It would be better practice for the teacher to disperse the ESL students among all the tables so they would be exposed to more spoken English.

I'd raise the seating arrangement with the teacher, but my angle would be what, if any, expectations the teacher has when it comes to your child at this particular table - specifically, will she be expected to support the others with work that requires knowledge of English.

If you detect any waffling or attempts to flatter you by referring to your child's academic standing or responsible, quiet nature (which would be code for yes, she is there to be a TA) or an outright yes, this is what I expect, I'd make it crystal clear to the teacher that your child will in no way, shape, or form be up for the role of TESL TA in the classroom, and that she is there to be taught to her level and make academic progress. Tell the teacher she will not translate or guide her fellow students through work requiring English. This is work the teacher should be doing, or work the school should hire a TA for.

Be very clear that you are advocating for your child and will be monitoring this situation. Be very clear that your child likes her fellow students and hopes she will make friendships within the group, and you greatly encourage her in that, but her role in school is to learn, not to provide academic or language support.

My daughter is multilingual and has been used to mentor other kids and help the teacher. In our case, she loved being a mentor but this is not the case for all children.

If your daughter is unhappy with situation speak to the teacher.

Just because your school does something doesn’t mean all do.

I think you are assuming your children will be asked to help and support but you really can’t know the level of English of those children sitting next to her. In many countries children start to learn English very early on or parents could have paid for private lessons ahead of their move to the U.K.

I’m raising a bilingual child and know many children than speak more than one language, sometimes they can be initially shy speaking in their “second” language but in fact understand everything.

I would reassure your daughter that you will intervene if it becomes a problem but would encourage her to keep an open mind about the situation.

So are you saying you work as a teacher in Ireland and are an expert on primary school teaching there or do you work in an entirely different country??

At my son's primary, HERE in Ireland, children only get moved once each half term and the seat they're allocated is where they sit all day. They don't swap groups several times a day so I can understand why the OPs daughter might feel anxious about being sat next to children who aren't fluent in English yet.

Thank you to your DD. When I arrived in the Uk my classmates were spectacularly unhelpful and unfriendly. This was at a pretentious London girls school - very popular with some on Mn!

I got my own back when it came to foreign language lessons - one of which was my mother tongue. I was permanently top of the class - did I help any of them - not a chance!

I would complain.

Scotland here but our tables weren't rotated at all during the year unless someone needed to be moved for behaviour issues.

Also, most of the group work was done within the table not with others in the class as some schools seem to do it.

If that is the case for you - i would complain that it is unreasonable for her to be the only English speaker for group work.

I would raise it with the teacher to say that your child is concerned that she will be excluded socially.

Who said anything about being excluded socially? I don't think OP did?

Whatever the reason for your child’s unhappiness, it’s best to discuss with the teacher to see how both yourself and the school can support.

My academic but quiet daughter got placed to a non English speaker and given an iPad to help with translations. Did her the absolute world of good. Came out of year six with amazing SATs scores and much more confidence in her own abilities.

I don't think you're being unreasonable. In year 5 and 6 at primary I was sat at a set table of 4 and we had every lesson like that, sat with the same people. We did mix widely at break times, but in the class room I could really only speak to the 3 other kids on my table. If I was the only English speaking one and the others all communicated in their own language I'd have hated it and felt really lonely. I don't think it's inappropriate to ask for a more even balance between English and non-English speakers sitting next to your child. As others have said, it's not your child's responsibility to teach the other children.