to honestley wonder, why have children if you WANT to work fulltime and are not prepared to make ANY sacrifices?

[milkgoddessmakesthefinestmilk]

i don't mean parents that HAVE to work to provide.

i mean the ones that choose to for no other reason, other than they enjoy their job so much.
if you enjoy your job so much, thats great.
but what i really do not understand is why have children?
no one makes any of these parents have children, you can go though life without having children.

this is 100% genuine question, i just do not get it.

Would add that part of my job is similar to Riven's (research) so easier to do at home even as an SAHM. I was proof-reading articles in bed before I'd even left the maternity ward. Articles can be ordered, and even the most tied-up SAHM may be able to negotiate the odd Saturday off with her partner; research libraries often have generous opening hours.
And most of the research on my particular project was done in 1613- so I think can keep up [wink}

A business career is obviously totally different.

Cory - good for you for keeping up with your area. But you can't really compare someone doing a job every day with keeping up at the odd weekend. Can you? Or we'd all be working like that. I'm intrigued to know what area you're in that nothing happened since 1613!

I think you're right Madamez, a lot of this is in fact woman-bashing, disguised in one way or another, and it's sad all round.

totally agree, madamez. There can be a hidden agenda to putting motherhood on a pedestal which is disconnected from the welfare of children.

All I am saying is, your children might or might not be damaged by childcare, depending on factors too myriad to list. So if working makes you happier or more secure or makes more financial sense, just give it a go. All the studies in the world will not tell you whether your children, your flesh-and-blood, will adapt to early childcare or not. And if you observe your children, you will have a good instinct as to whether they are happy with your arrangements.

Go for it, if you want to.

do what you feel happiest doing.
if you decide to work full-time...thats ok.
stay at home everyday until the child is 18..thats 0k.
i think they're are very few women who choose to work for reasons other than financial...and i don't know one woman who doesn't sacrifice alot for her child..even if she works.

they all grow up and leave whatever you do.

No studies put forward suggest children are damaged by childcare just that it may not be ideal.

STOP TALKING ABOUT DAMAGE!

Why are mothers expected to provide the ideal? Many women choose to work and accept that daycare may/may not be the ideal but that it is good enough and are confident that their child will thrive due to the numerous other positive factors in their parenting. (consistency, love, interest, aspiartion etc)

Maybe I should say this quietly as it may shock some, but...some mothesr choose to work to fulfill their own emotional needs.

And furthermore, you may need to sit down for this, all mothers do have thier own emotional needs, AND, no mother totally sacrifices these for her child. NO MOTHER.

Because nothers are JUST PEOPLE. Yes people who love thier children, peopel who usually do make some often many sacrifices but actually just needy, emotional NORMAL people.

For some mothers work is important to them as it fulfills and validates them ina way that being at home full time couldn't. For some mothers being at home fulfills them emotionally and validates them. (not as selfless as it may initially appear)

You are differnt. Accept that. You will bring your children up differently but successfully, Accpet that.

I agree with everything said by Madamz. The idea of motherhood being a state of taotl sacrifice and that you are somehow 'unatural' or 'unloving' if you do not sign up for this totally, is a tool to bash women with.

What really saddens me is that women are using it to bash each other. In both camps

How did it come to this? Why and when did we become each others enemies??

"How did it come to this? Why and when did we become each others enemies?"

Because life's a competition.

"I have five children and I earn mega-bucks and live in a huge house so I am better than YOU who have two children, doesn't earn and lives in a small house yah boo sucks"

"I have two children who I bring up full-time and don't abandon to childcare while I selfishly pursue my own interests so I am better than YOU yah boo sucks"

Etc etc etc

I don't understand the idea of sacrifice with regards to children. We choose to have them or at least many of us do. We make a free choice to have babies because we want them and are sure that they will bring joy. Where is the sacrifice? And then women who don't like their jobs as much as being home with the baby and can afford to, give those jobs up. Again, where's the sacrifice? Just because you can't fit everything into a day or a life doesn't mean sacrifice.

I agree with the OP.

Just kidding

Well, I'm ok with the idea of sacrifices, but I don't see how 'working fulltime' = 'not making sacrifices'.

Dh works fulltime and makes sacrifices as a parent.

Xenia, why have 5/6 children is you only intend to feed them and not nourish them with your affection after two weeks. If you felt the need to procreate to watch your child ride your horse why not just have two? I guess OP was asking the question about people like you.
Being raised by a good parent is better than a fantastic nursery, grandparent, nanny or childminder.

Naughty? Me? I'm a paragon, I am.

I edit medieval texts, Cristina. The particular text I am working on atm was last edited in the early 17th cent and this is the text still used by scholars today (and a crap text it is too).

And I'm not actually fulltime SAHM any longer: I juggle university teaching with time looking after disabled dd, working in the evenings, working during spare moments, whatever (am even working now- popping into MN in between conjectures).

I did work pretty well every day when dd was a baby- worked around her, worked at night etc. The odd weekend was what I got to spend in the library- but not all research has to be done in libraries. A lot of it you can do from photocopies at home. It was stressful and got harder when she started toddling, and naturally I was less productive than somebody who wasn't doing two jobs. But I still got some things done.

Some authors of fiction have also been able to write while being SAHMs (though probably more have found they couldn't). But obviously this can't be done in most professions.

I just think we should all be accepting of each other. People do lead different lives and different sorts of setups are needed in this world. And any time and energy spent bashing each other is time and energy that could be spent more profitably elsewhere.

Defintion of scrifice 'the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.'

OP is suggesting women who value thier jobs should give this up (or scrifice for needs of the children).

Then debate about level of sacrifice needed and effect on children ensued.

Of course there are sacrifices when you have children. I have scarificed: going to the cinema more than once a year, seeing friends as reguarly, amount of time I can devote to reading, frequent nights out to pub , amount of money I have, and promotion at work due to being part time.

These are some of my sacrifices that I willingly make for my children.

Others make different ones, and the OP suggests that if you arenot preapred to sacrifice work you should not have children.

Show me a mother who has made no sacrifices, or one that has sacrificed everything.

They are unlikely to exist(or be bearable if they do)

What's not to get about the link between parenting and sacrifice? just beacuse you choose it does not mean it's not a scarifice in fact that is essential to the defintion.
don't get it.

Many people on MN seem unable to distinguish between thier own valid choice and the eqaully valid choice of others. There seems to be some simpleton logic that because I deceided it must be right, it must, and should be right for everyone.

There are a million differnt ways to be a mother.

Totally agree with Monkeybird 9.16 and 9.50 posts.
Anna, how can you notice differences between children in 5 minutes of picking up dd at nursery? The differences I can spot among my friends' children are linked to the children's personalities and their parents way of parenting, interests and ideals, not to the amount of time they spent at nursery.
Strangely the other day I watched an Italian documentary on French nurseries, and they looked lovely. The children played and looked normal

I'm not Xenia so can't speak for her but I'm intrigued By Posie's view that she stopped "nourishing them with affection after two weeks".

I've yet to meet a mother (SAHM or WOHM) who only loved her children when she was in their physical presence.

Franca - I was talking about one very specific fact (we see rather a lot more of the children and their parents than five minutes outside school, btw).

The children who have been in full-time daycare (be that nursery or with a nounou) speak the language of the nursery/nounou as their first (main) language when entering school aged 3. The children who have been with their mothers speak the language of their mothers as their first (main) language aged 3.

This is universal, btw - the school takes it as a given (school has been going for decades and has annual intake of 90 children, hardly any of whom have a single language at home).

So - language acquisition is impacted by the SAHM choice.

It's not nursery (crèche) Franca, it's school.

I wouldn't condemn anyone for going back to work full time if they truely enjoy the juggling etc it requires.

What I do have a bit of problem getting my head around though is the parent that works full time, complains about it, but does it to fund a middle class lifestyle 'for their kids'.

I would think most kids would rather be at home booting around in the garden with their mum/dad looking after them than institutionalised in a nursery and attending afterschool clubs. Even if it meant living in a semi detached house, not going to private school and missing out on a holiday to Barbados once a year.

Really, in the latter case, the middle class lifestyle is for the parents.

The OP seems to assume that working when you don't HAVE to is selfish, but surely most people who work are also making a contribution to society through their work (not in any way saying that SAHM aren't also making a contribution), which is definitely not selfish.

I enjoy my work, but I also work because I feel what I do is worthwhile and important to society. I spent years getting an education and training in my field and there are not lots of spare people around with my particular qualifications or experience who could do it instead of me. Does this mean I'm not allowed to have children?

I love my parents who live abroad but they don't need a little eye contact, cuddles and talk from me to know this, I think a child does.