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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to honestley wonder, why have children if you WANT to work fulltime and are not prepared to make ANY sacrifices?

1007 replies

milkgoddessmakesthefinestmilk · 17/04/2008 15:48

i don't mean parents that HAVE to work to provide.

i mean the ones that choose to for no other reason, other than they enjoy their job so much.
if you enjoy your job so much, thats great.
but what i really do not understand is why have children?
no one makes any of these parents have children, you can go though life without having children.

this is 100% genuine question, i just do not get it.

OP posts:
francagoestohollywood · 18/04/2008 12:54

school yes, sorry. Interesting. I haven't never noticed it. My best friend's dd has been in childcare (creche) since she was 9 months and she talked early and with extreme property of the Italian language from the very beginning (spent a holiday together when the dds were 1). Just like her mother.

Anna8888 · 18/04/2008 12:59

Sorry - the issue here is in dual (or more) language families, I wasn't being specific.

All that it tells you factually (this is a big sample and other multilingual schools here and bilingual organisations tell the same story) is that language acquisition is impacted by the SAHM/WOHM choice.

Up to you whether you then believe that cognitive development is also impacted.

bearblue · 18/04/2008 13:00

Spaceman

You nailed it on the head

Chequers · 18/04/2008 13:03

Message withdrawn

Mamazon · 18/04/2008 13:03

I have steered clearl of this thread for days now..but im bored.

Ok im not THAT bored.

blueshoes · 18/04/2008 13:06

Anna, it would make sense that the person whom the child spends the most time with will influence early language acquisition. But once a child starts school, then the language of instruction becomes important and sometimes even becomes the language of preference for the child. I see a lot of children who start out being better at one language, because one parent, talks to that child exclusively in one language at home, but then they switch to using English once they start school.

Children learn throughout their lives.

My impression is that there are studies that show cognitive outcomes tend to be better for children who have attended nurseries when measured at the point they start school. But I am not one to make a big deal of it, not least because I cannot cite chapter and verse and it does not influence my decision whether to use a nursery.

FreddysTeddy · 18/04/2008 13:09

I dunno where this debate about language skills came from but my two pennorth is that my english (SAHM) cousin and english partner had both their children in Switzerland and since they were about 8 have had to have extra English lessons as their german skills are far better.

Judy1234 · 18/04/2008 13:13

?they [ nannies] are always going to be employees who can leave a child without regrets)?
Not my experience. I think all of us bond with children, old people, friends we spend time with whether we are a blood relation or not. Most nannies who have looked after a baby for 3 or 5 years leave with lots of regrets. Every one I have ever known has kept in touch with the children after, sometimes for 10 years after sometimes more. Some fathers stick around for shorter periods than some nannies, sadly. We cannot guarantee everyone in our children?s lives will always be there but we can do our best to ensure they will be. Ensuring they have some diversity of close relationships protects them in a sense from dependence on only one adult for all love.

?I'm not Xenia so can't speak for her but I'm intrigued By Posie's view that she stopped "nourishing them with affection after two weeks".? NO one asks fathers who they can love a child and return to work at 2 weeks. It all comes back to getting at women as madamex said above. Woman as martyr and victim who whatever she does is wrong.

?To fund middle class lifestyle? ? as I said in a description above of my 23 year yes I have been able to buy for her and her siblings quite a nice middle class lifestyle and I?m not ashamed of that at all. It?s a laudable aim. It hasn?t been riven from us all by dire agony and maternal separation anxiety and crying babies over 23 years. It?s been a usually two career working family at least until we divorced anyway as most full time working couples manage it. If the child does not need to be with its mother 24/7 (the if we seem to be discussing on the thread) from age 0 ? 3 then if the care it has is good which is what most parents achieve, then the pros in terms of benefits to children of working outweigh the cons. There seems to be some myth amongst stay at home mothers that working mothers abandon a child and then don?t love it or see it but if you have a baby and work you?ve got hours of lovely bonding and breastfeeding in the hours you?re not at work, most of us rush to be home quicly after work and have weekends and holidays with the baby. It?s not like ?giving it up? and going abroad for 6 months without it.

A good few women on here have mothers who hated being at home. Mine had taught for 13 years and loved it and should have gone back to work and really really resented that in my view, although she is responsible for herself and should have gone back had she wanted to.

I wonder what the differences are at say age 5, 10 and 15 of children of two full time working parents and those who don't work. Obviously over 23 years I have seen loads of examples of both but I suspect you can better distinguish children between those in loving families and those in families which are dysfunctional. If there's a father who rules with an iron rod or alcoholism at home or a mother at home who hates it and is on ADs or a working parent who is distracted by her lover all the time or abroad too much or had a damaged childhood such that she cannot give a good childhood to her own child - that is going to have more of an impact than whether the parents work or not.

I suspect my children are more sociable, relate to others (know how to deal with staff although I doubt anyone on here would see that as a plus point in life!), have navigated the London underground at night alone sooner than most children of non working parents, perhaps know how to sort out problems themselves better because their parents are not their nursemaids, may be realise women work and aren't servants of men so won't be sexist in their own adult relationships, are more likely to be astonished if they see a man slumped on his fat bottom at home having his every need seen to by some woman who is financially reliant on him, more knowledgeable about the world of work. Perhaps other differences too.

bearblue · 18/04/2008 13:14

We live in France kids go to english school where french is taught daily

When ds was 3 he went to french playschool he is fleunt now
My dd didnt go to french playschool just has daily french lessons at school and cant/won`t speak a word of it

Its proven that as a youngest its easier to pick up a SECOND language something to do with the brain??
Also you don`t question it you just accept it

francagoestohollywood · 18/04/2008 13:14

sorry, forgot she goes to bilingual school. I don't understand what does this prove though. hd you gone back to work your dd would have French as her main language, what is wrong with that?

francagoestohollywood · 18/04/2008 13:16

I'd say that cognitive outcomes follow the parents' level of education, income and class, unfortunately, on average.

PosieParker · 18/04/2008 13:26

Xenia, you make outrageous claims. Maybe your children can navigate the underground better than a GP who lives in the heart of Somerset too, but that hardly makes a good enough reason to ship them out of your daily life at two weeks.
Nannies are nursemaids too!
There are always more impacting things than whether a parent works.
My arguement is about both parents being away not just a mother, if you left your child with their father I would see nothing unusual about it. I think women should have the choice to do whatever they want but not both parents at the cost of their children.
To be honest I couldn't care less how you rear your children but you do invite critism by slamming SAHMs. I write and am about to launch a product and have managed to do this in the evening. My children understand that I am not a servant and I am appreciated by my partner and I think it's foolish to think that all SAHMs leave their daughters thinking that that's all there is to life.

francagoestohollywood · 18/04/2008 13:31

I don't think that parents who work full time do it at the cost of their dc. Nothing will convince me of this. I stayed at home because it suited me and because I didn't have a job I liked and needed to go back to. Not because it would have harmed my children. I don't believe that.

Anna8888 · 18/04/2008 13:33

I'll explain what matters to me, Franca...

By staying at home with my daughter for the first almost-three-years until she started pre-school, I ensured she spoke English fluently (which matters hugely to me and to her father) and that she was with someone (me) who has a vast vocabulary and an analytical mind who can give her rational and, as far as I am able, correct explanations of the world around her.

Had I left her full-time in a nursery or with a childcarer (of the type available here in France) she would have spoken French on a daily basis with someone whose vocabulary and cognitive skills were significantly inferior to my own.

On balance, knowing for sure that her English would have been less good in the second scenario and strongly suspecting that her cognitive skills would be less developed also in that scenario, I preferred to stay with her for those first three years and send her straight to school from home.

At school she is with fully qualified primary school teachers who do an excellent job, btw.

duchesse · 18/04/2008 13:38

Those were exactly the reasons that led me to stay at home for the first few years of my children's life, Anna. Sadly I fouled up on the French, but they got exposure to my weird sense of humour and really quite philospophical discussions at 3 and 4 years of age, heard and used multisyllabic words from a young age, and never once watched Barney or Teletubbies, which I consider a huge point of honour. (only watched Wallace & Gromit and Barbapapa and Chamomile la Sorciere). You don't get a toddlerhood like that in a day nursery.

BUT

I enjoyed being at home with them. The whole experience would have been hideously miserable if I hadn't, and I would support anybody's right to return to work if they are not enjoying being with their little child.

francagoestohollywood · 18/04/2008 13:40

Here in Italy nursery staff have to have a university degree, so it is not a given that their cognitive skills would be inferior than mine. Cognitive skills which didn't really ensured I had a fabulous career nor made me particularly self confident.

Issy · 18/04/2008 13:40

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request

Johnso · 18/04/2008 13:41

Yes, the whole point is to enjoy your children and give them some attention

blueshoes · 18/04/2008 13:43

franca: "I'd say that cognitive outcomes follow the parents' level of education, income and class, unfortunately, on average." Totally agree.

That is why I am quite relaxed about my dd's cognitive development , who will no doubt attain her naturally predestined quota of braininess, subtly enhanced by years of breastmilk (just kidding) and the opportunities afforded by a stimulating time at nursery and a slightly rambunctious home life.

Anna8888 · 18/04/2008 13:44

duchesse - obviously, I enjoyed it a lot too.

But I think part of the enjoyment stemmed from the fact that I was doing it with a precise purpose.

Johnso · 18/04/2008 13:45

I think it is emtional rather than intellectual though.

Anna8888 · 18/04/2008 13:46

Here the workers in nurseries have very low level qualifications (they don't have the baccalaureate even). People who do childcare at home might have their bacc if you got very lucky indeed.

francagoestohollywood · 18/04/2008 13:56

No, in Italy you need to have attended a specific high school plus some kind of university diploma. But then we were in England when the dc were little and when the time arrived for them to learn English, we decided they could go to nursery part time. Where they acquired a lovely devon accent.

blueshoes · 18/04/2008 13:59

Johnso, I agree that emotional development is more crucial in early years, than cognitive, where the window of development stretches prety much over the life of the child.

Hence, when I was choosing a nursery for my dcs, I was more keen on loving responsive carers with big arms and hearts, rather than their level of education. I don't think people tend to expect tertiary educated carers in UK, beyond perhaps a cursory interest in their childcare qualifications.

Anna8888 · 18/04/2008 14:01

I don't think that there is a distinction to be drawn between "emotional" and "cognitive" development in the early years

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