to honestley wonder, why have children if you WANT to work fulltime and are not prepared to make ANY sacrifices?

[milkgoddessmakesthefinestmilk]

i don't mean parents that HAVE to work to provide.

i mean the ones that choose to for no other reason, other than they enjoy their job so much.
if you enjoy your job so much, thats great.
but what i really do not understand is why have children?
no one makes any of these parents have children, you can go though life without having children.

this is 100% genuine question, i just do not get it.

ALMummy - your assumptions would be so wrong. Can I refer you back to these pages on here to find out a few things? Or else suggest you don't get involved in such debates if your mind is totally closed to anyone else's p.o.v. A bit of imagination is required, I think.

ALMummy, I would choose not to SAHM whether or not I needed to work. Because I am me and you are you.

And because children are not ALWAYS damaged by early years childcare and I have personally seen how my dcs love their nursery, I skip off the work after the morning drop off to an easy life of work and coffees and lunches whilst padding out our bank account, safe in the knowledge that my children are having an equally groovy time at childcare. What's to pity?

Riven - sorry, I didn't know your personal circumstances. Of course that is the only human thing to do.

ALMummy, I'll ignore the patronising tone of the second half of your post. But the first bit: the point the OP was making was the complete refusal of some parents to make any sacrifices etc etc.

The point is though that this is a complete paper tiger, a group of mythical parents made up by the OP. You have no idea and neither does she what decisions and sacrifices other parents make, what their reasons are for going back to work or not.

The group of evil mummies you're talking about are a fictional whipping boy, a folk devil, a scapegoat. It's an irritating and uninformed way to argue TBH.

Equally stupid are the people who make up fictional SAHM folk devils (like Xenia). Xenia is much funnier though, but it still shouldn't be excused.

SAHMs do get free time? When? I've been one for 3 years and I didn't.

Anna, my area is the law. We have loads of crusty partners knocking around. Clients do like their white hairs.

Christina - that's not at all fair to riven.

In my three years + as a SAHM I did masses and masses of reading/research. As a result, I now manage to do the work I am paid to do for 20 hours a week in under 10.

It won't last, though

Law firms work in pyramid structure though... don't they? Up or out.

Anna? Where was I unfair? I can't know what goes on in everyone's lives and why they have the viewpoint they do. I can only answer to the posts.

Monkeybird, actually I do know some parents who made the choice to put their children into childcare early with a lack of regard for their child and that is why this thread struck a chord with me.

As for the "patronising" second part of my post. I am afraid I was only responding to the patronising and rather silly poster who said that SAHM are threatened by WOHM. Just clarifying that this is not in fact the case with me.

Its not easy being a sahm

You feel you have to volunteer for everything at dc school
Go and do reading az school twice a week
Homework up2date etc etc
Becos otherwise people thinkwhat else have you got 2 do???

There is no free time

If you have a shit day you cant close the office door and walk away 4 the nite

Anna, my firm will argue till they are blue in the face that they are not 'up or out' and have taken quite concrete steps on the HR front to redress that. The traditional career path presupposes that junior = young and unskilled. Hence, there will be the issue of where is moderately skilled (but out of the market) bag like me will fit in their traditional structure.

Who knows, maybe in the next cycle of the market, when it is all hands to the pump, and I am willing to gear up again (giggle because I am enjoying my hours right now too much), my firm might consider me again. THe partners who knew me in my thrusting youth and can put a good word in are still there and going strong.

how do you know they had a lack of regard for their child ALM?

Cristina - my "assumptions" are in fact my opinions and I will feel free to express them on this debate or anywhere else. From reading your posts I see made a fair few inaccurate assumptions about Riven didnt you?

riven, stick with neuroscience and psychology. It is a darn sight easier to explain than ICM. Neither my parents nor dh (however much he tries, bless him) has a scooby what that is, despite my apples/oranges explanations. By the 3rd sentence, people's eyes glaze over and I know I have lost them ...

I'm intriuged by the assumption in the OP that you can have a child "without making any sacrifices."

How is this possible? All parents make "sacrifices" whether others care to admit it or not. Women sacrifice their bodies to pregnancy, money for childcare doesn't grow on trees, people who leave their 6 week old babies in childcare for 10 hours a day still make sacrifices, whatever they may be.

It's this that really makes me think that what lies behind the OP is more than just her idea of what constitutes "good parenting." It smacks of her wanting to be praised for her own martyrdom.

Very sad.

Is this still going on

Agree with Monkeybird on the pointlessness of it all and the throwing around of "The evidence proves..." without any factual proof at all.

Can't it just be left as it is all SUBJECTIVE, and rejoice in the very specific neuroses we shall each fill our children with.

I feel torn both ways here. I can't believe that being a SAHM can't be a valid choice, but I really cannot convince myself that all Mums who go back to work damage their children either. I have simply known too many happy and undamaged children from either arrangement.

One thing I would say for myself. I was brought up by a nanny for the first 3 years of my life, then my Mum became a SAHM. She was brilliant, but I very much doubt that it was the right choice for her. I have no unhappy memories from the first 3 years of my life, and was clearly very close to both my parents at that time. The rest of my childhood was also happy and full of fun, but the one thing that did make me uncomfortable was the knowledge that my Mum was not really happy. This got worse as I grew up and realised what a brilliant mind she had and how she suffered from the feeling that she had wasted its potential. She provided a wonderfully stimulating environment for us, but we left home eventually and then it was too late for her to go back; she had lost confidence. I know she never grudged anything she did for us, but I still knew and suffered from it; that was one thing she couldn't prevent.

I am finding myself more of a SAHM than I had intended (disabled dd), but am trying to keep up with my work (when not distracted by MN), as I would rather my dd didn't have this nagging feeling spoiling her enjoyment.

< still a policywonk fan >

ALMummy - look, anyone who thinks 16 years out of formal employment is an easy gap to bridge is, sadly, very wrong.

I know we try and be supportive on boards like this and say "don't worry, you can put X, Y, and Z on your CV" but, you know what, that's just ppl being nice. Few professions will accept an equivalence between getting children on time for school and juggling some busy department's diary. Other accrediting bodies can be v tough indeed. After 15 years paid employment in the UK, post-graduate degree in English and research publications etc, I had to sit an English language test to prove I can understand various regional accents and can write in English etc. Nobody gave a fig that I help my son with his homework and should therefore have passable English. I had to go through the hoops. That's before going into proper professional skills examination.

It's the same old bottom line: quite a lot of people are not comfortable with the idea that women are human and therefore entitled to make choices and do things for their own benefit. Because if it wasn't for women's unpaid work of wiping arses, giving cuddles, caring, cooking and cleaning and the rest, then the world would grind to a halt/ Most woman-bashing and accusations of selfishness come from this terrible fear that more and more women are going to go, well, fuck it, I'm not doing more than my fair share and I'm going to have a life that suits me.