Mums of sons. (Hard hat on for this)

[Daniagainagainagainagain]

Apologies for the grabby title. I've NC'd for this as I have a few running threads currently with very outing and personal details on.

Anyway back to the point.
I see SO many threads on here where the topic about the thread is about a guy. It's not even necessarily bad about the bloke in question, but so many many posters just seem to hate men. Not give them the benefit of the doubt. Tear them a new arsehole for merely posting on MN asking for advice. There was a thread recently about a woman seeing a really nice guy, a gentlemen as she described him where he had been separated for literally YEARS but wasn't divorced. Turns out there were cultural differences meaning divorce in that country is very rare. People kept saying 'throw him back in the sea' 'he's a liar' one poster called him a wanker.. there was no evidence that he was a wanker and the OP seemed happy with the guy. Just more people clutching for their moment to berate men. It's always the guys fault on here no matter what.

It's always the same posters more often than not berating men, shooting them down, and just hating them. I wonder, do these women posters have sons? If so, do you think your sons are exempt from such awful insults because 'my boy would never'? I can't imagine these posters talking about their sons like that. So do you pick and choose, is it one rule for your sons and one for all other men?

Before it labelled being 'cool' I have just got out of a 10 year abusive relationship where ex cheated multiple times to the point of police involvement. I am not naive to think some of these guys deserve what they get.

AIBU? To think there's huge double standards? To call strangers with no reason to, wankers, but to also think the son shines out of your son's arses?

I know I'll probably ruffle some feathers but I'd genuinely like to know. And yes I have DC.

I agree with this. The 'Karen' movement is just another way to silence women (normally middle aged, who are rightfully complaining) and sadly a lot of GenZ have picked up on the bandwagon. I don't hear it as much now so hopefully it's a dying trend. The 'Nigel' movement didn't pick up half as much traction which is interesting. But neither are acceptable.

Yes, @Hectorscalling I am aware. Even more aware after this thread.

And yes, of course I'm aware that men accuse women of things they haven't done. I may be a lot of things on this thread, but I'm not thick, like many people are trying to paint me out to be.

I'm naturally discussing the male side of things more, because that's the topic of the thread.

You want to discuss the male side?

You, a woman with no sons, want to discuss how badly men are impacted by women?

Why? Who does that help? The men you are so worried about? How does having a conversation without them help? Unless it's to tell women it's their fault and they need ro be kinder to solve the problem?

You keep bringing up situations as though they prove women hate men. But all they prove is some people are awful to other people. You seem to be more appalled that your brother got accused of something and nothing happened to him, than you were regarding women being killed by their partner.

If you know men accuse women of things, you know that some people do terrible things. Not women, people. You claimed you would be worried for a son, if you had one, incase they got accused of something they didn't do. It very unlikely that will happen.

Your daughter has a much bigger chance of a man hurting her and him still not facing consequences. Your daughter, who actually exists, is far more at risk. But your concern is women on mumsnet might not like men.

Our society is run by men. Men have the power. If how society is set up is negatively impacting men, who are the people who cab change it?

Have you changed your position at all OP since you started the thread? Obviously you're still going to be upset about the unfortunate, and thankfully very rare, things that happened to the men you know, but do you still see hold the same stance that negativity from some women towards some men is such a huge problem that it should be something women need to address? If so, what is your suggestion, that women stop talking about male problem behaviour? What would be ideal for you? (Sorry, a lot of questions!)

Even the met police came out last month and said that the levels of violence against women/girls in England and Wales is a national emergency.

But I suppose they don’t go by statistics and first hand experience and data.

Must all be drama lamas.

Men being domestically abused or falsely accused is far outweighed by women being abused, even organisations like Refuge will tell you that.

I get that you’re being an advocate for the men in your life but it’s very tone deaf in our current climate of misogyny.

Men famously never support women and girls rights or call out abuse when they see it, and abuse does come in all forms.

This whole thread is giving Pick me vibes.

Exactly, men like him are just as much the problem.

Experts at ‘othering’ the ‘bad men’ they absolutely know these men, they are the colleagues, brothers, mates, fathers, sons of all of us.

I’ve witnessed the self labelled ‘nice guys’ laughing along or just staying silent at other males toxic language/behaviour many many times. That’s why I have respect for very few men.

The shitty men don’t exist in a fkn vacuum they walk amongst us.

'Your daughter has a much bigger chance of a man hurting her and him still not facing consequences. Your daughter, who actually exists, is far more at risk. But your concern is women on mumsnet might not like men.'

@Hectorscalling you've assumed a lot about me in that extremely judgemental post, but I ask you to please don't judge or assume my parenting and make out I am naive to the fact I have a daughter and seem blinded by the risks. Believe you me, I'm absolutely not. I was sexually abused as a child. I was also sexually abused by a boss at a previous place of work. I am FULLY aware thank you. I keep repeating the same thing, I'm talking and asking questions because I'm INTERESTED. That does not make me naive to the risks of being a little girl in this world. I am protecting my daughter as best as I can. I am an educated woman and a good mother at that. Just because I started a thread about this topic, it doesn't mean I don't care about the other. I have explained so many times now that I KNOW the world is a tougher place for women. I think you forget that I'm a woman myself.

I shouldn't have to be made to feel like a shit parent and not protecting my daughter because I'm choosing to speak about and ask questions about a certain subject.

You say you care about other things, but this is the topic you felt to dedicate days to discussing? I'm genuinely interested in why that is.
You're clearly in a fairly unique position having experienced so much male violence, and having so many falsely accused men in your life, it is baffling to me that men being called out online is your topic of choice.

I think so. I think posters thought I was very anti women, naive, in denial about what women and girls go through. That I'm standing up for men because 'poor men.'
It couldn't be further from the truth. I feel extremely strongly about women's rights, and I'm raising my daughter the best I can to keep her as safe as possible, knowing all the risks of being a female. This thread has certainly opened my eyes up to see how many people feel about even talking about this topic. I'm not very old, so I guess life experience always helps with these things and life is full of lessens. Perhaps it is distasteful to advocate for this topic especially on a female forum , but at no point was I advocating anything that spoke ill of women. And I've learnt that it's sometimes seen as belittling women and what we've been through, when standing up for men. Everyone should have the opportunity to learn and be better. But it shouldn't come with hurling insults and being called pathetic and lacking intelligence for doing just that. But here we are! There's been some interesting links and comments on here re stats which I'm keen to look into. I frequently donate to women's charities and I'm a full advocate for women speaking up, we've been through hell and back to even get where we are today and we have a long way to go and I know all this! Despite what people on this thread may think of me. It's all a learning curve after all. I knew it would ruffle some feathers posting this, but it was never posted in any harm.

@Fluufer

This thread has genuinely made me question myself, as to whether I'm asking these questions and discussing this topic because there's an inner reason that I can't see. If it's due to the abusive relationship and the sexual abuse I've encountered. My therapist has only worked on adult stuff and my abusive relationship, not childhood. Perhaps I'm feeling like this in a way of 'people pleasing.' I don't know. I can't really answer your question apart from being interested in the topic, and wondered if anyone else thought it. Sorry for the vague answer.

I think OP that is an understandable response to experiencing abuse from men, to want very passionately to believe in the good ones. It's a way to feel safer and keep faith in human nature. And of course, you're absolutely right, it isn't all men. I think its also natural as a survivor to empathise with other survivors, hence your protection of your male friends. I think as others have said though it's about separating the individual cases from group patterns.
I respect that you've been prepared to listen to other perspectives (after the shakey start!) and that you're reflecting. I think we all need to do that all the time however old we are. All the best to you with the things you've got going on in your life.

That's not a vague answer, that's a great honest answer. I do think it's best if you reflect on your subconscious motivations, and I really hope things are looking up for you!

@Fluufer @5128gap thank you both. Yes, some reflection is on the cards for sure.

I'm going to carefully broach the subject with my therapist next week. One of the threads running (hence the frequent name change) is under my username @conacopiaoflove and the title is something like TW: child sexual abuse do I report it. As I've been unsure whether to do just that and it's messing with my head a bit.

It's actually something that's been taking over my mind recently as I was only very young, and since having my little girl it's brought up old wounds. It's something I'm working on. Perhaps there is a link there with starting this thread and defending the menz.

I realise I've hugely outed myself now which is something I didn't want to do, with my cancer details and now that other thread. I've only linked here to show that I really do know about sexual abuse, and what women and girls go through. I never wanted to minimise it or anyone's experience.

I guess I deep down would like to understand men more, and be seen to be on their side, so maybe they're then not as threatening to me. I don't know if this is making any sense, it's not really making any sense in my head but I'm trying to explain the best I can

Yes I am judging what you wrote. Just as you are judging what I wrote. How would this forum work otherwise?

Your opening posts and several other posters have been immensely hostile to women. Especially the ‘do you personally know any women who have been murdered by their partner?’ (Paraphrasing) you have given reasons. But no reason to say why you didn’t address people who do in fact know women who have been murdered by their partner.

You won’t answer why it matters if any of us know these women personally. They were still real people with lives and family’s and futures. Whether we know them or not.

You give examples where men have been treated badly as though that neutralised the very real risk to women, from men. You have consistently used misogynistic comments. You have suffered a lot of abuse in your life, presumably from men. Yet, started a thread from a very confrontational view point, telling women they should be nicer to men. Then used male suicide rates as proof being a man is so hard we should ignore the huge issues and be nice to them.

It’s good that you are going to look further into help. Because while I am sure you are doing your best, it’s not good for girls to be brought up in a mindset that’s rooted in misogyny and prioritising men and their feelings. Which you are doing, seemingly, unconsciously. And wanted women to explain to you why they don’t (that’s the basis of the thread).

Internalised misogyny is very very real and does real damage to women and girls. Especially, when women don’t realise they are doing it. You may not be naive to the risks men pose. But you still think their feelings should be a priority.

I hope you get support and get put the real work in. Pp is right, you may just want to believe that most men are good. That makes you very vulnerable. And by extension makes your child vulnerable.

It makes perfect sense OP. You are looking for ways to navigate the world that means you don't need to fear men. Keeping your enemy close and turning men into equal victims is a way to neutralise the threat. There are other ways though, the main one being to talk about the issues openly and honestly so that collectively we can try to generate solutions. You have heard from various mothers of sons what they're doing to work towards that for example. You have heard what women are asking good men to do and what many of them are doing. Don't push other women away. There is a lot of strength to be found from us, the sharing of our experiences and the support we can give each other.

I just want to apologise if I offended anybody by the thread / some of my questions / comments.

I do have quite a sharp tongue and I'm working on it. I think I'm going to leave this here now as I've obvious got a lot of work to do. So this thread hasn't been all pointless. I am sorry to anybody who has known anyone who has sadly lost their lives or been seriously injured by men. I was never not sorry and I would never minimise what that is like. I selfishly got lapped up in the thread and didn't give that section of it the attention it deserved, which made me come across very heartless and for that I am sorry.

I've been called a lot of things on this thread, but I am a good mum. My little girl has been the only thing to get me through the last few years. I want to make the world a better place for her, and I realise trying to be every man's friend is not going to do that.

The only person who I won't say sorry to, was the person who accused me of lying about my cancer, domestic abuse and sexual assault. All I have to say to that, is I hope you never have to go through that.

I'll leave this here now, thank you for all the responses good and bad. Definitely food for thought.

One last thing, I promise I was telling the truth about the name change. I do (somehow) have the ability to name change in the same thread. Which I innocently did as I name change after every thread I do. I did that thinking I was coming back to this thread but alas, I was back. I'm sorry for the confusion that caused.

Thanks again peeps, have a good eve and I'll leave this here.

@Daniagainagainagainagain if you do come back to this thread, just wanted to say that I'm sorry for all that you've been through and for all that you are still going through.

All the best to you and thank you for updating the thread.

There are really good men out there. I think the best way to find them is to develop and keep strong boundaries.

Hi there,
Just to confirm that it is the case that this was one poster using two nicknames, as has been stated several times by the poster herself.

@BernardBlacksBreakfastWine
@Fluufer
@DickEmery
@RareBears
@angeldelite
@im

There we are, I was called a liar for posting from different accounts. MN have confirmed I was not. It was an innocent mistake and I forgot to change my name on this thread.

@ImSoExited
@LuminousCrystalFox
@alldayeveryday247
@Starlingexpress
@BabaYetu

Those were the posters who jumped on me and wouldn't believe me about the genuine error. I explained why I name changed in the thread. I didn't think I was coming back so I changed my name. I had a glitch on my account where it didn't default back to the username on this thread. This caused posters to tell me I am lying about my cancer, my abusive relationship and my sick child.

It just goes to show, sometimes you need to give the OP the benefit of the doubt before piling on. I'm not justifying the things I said, but I wasn't lying and when people were accusing me of such above, I'm going to fight back and be hurt at the accusations.

I hope that MN post below puts it to bed.

I doubt anybody will be back to say sorry though. :)

I didn’t believe you about the genuine error because Mumsnet Site Stuff said it wasn’t possible. I am sorry for not believing you. However, as MN had supposedly made it impossible to do, I think that was a reasonable position to take.

I didn’t accuse you of anything else bar being extremely disrespectful and dismissive of those of us who knew and cared about women murdered by men in your flippant post about it.

Yep, but when I was posting screenshots proving my case, the pile on shouldn't have got even worse.

And yes the mumsnet site stuff confirms it is impossible, there are, however, glitches in systems, as everybody knows on this site. And I wasn't flippant about women getting murdered. I have said multiple times that it's heartbreaking, and I've said I'm sorry for anyone who is personally affected by that. Perhaps you don't see those posts.

Don't drag it back up. There's really no point. It was really odd to name change, but the conversation moved on, it doesn't need to be dragged back up. Let it go.