Mums of sons. (Hard hat on for this)

[Daniagainagainagainagain]

Apologies for the grabby title. I've NC'd for this as I have a few running threads currently with very outing and personal details on.

Anyway back to the point.
I see SO many threads on here where the topic about the thread is about a guy. It's not even necessarily bad about the bloke in question, but so many many posters just seem to hate men. Not give them the benefit of the doubt. Tear them a new arsehole for merely posting on MN asking for advice. There was a thread recently about a woman seeing a really nice guy, a gentlemen as she described him where he had been separated for literally YEARS but wasn't divorced. Turns out there were cultural differences meaning divorce in that country is very rare. People kept saying 'throw him back in the sea' 'he's a liar' one poster called him a wanker.. there was no evidence that he was a wanker and the OP seemed happy with the guy. Just more people clutching for their moment to berate men. It's always the guys fault on here no matter what.

It's always the same posters more often than not berating men, shooting them down, and just hating them. I wonder, do these women posters have sons? If so, do you think your sons are exempt from such awful insults because 'my boy would never'? I can't imagine these posters talking about their sons like that. So do you pick and choose, is it one rule for your sons and one for all other men?

Before it labelled being 'cool' I have just got out of a 10 year abusive relationship where ex cheated multiple times to the point of police involvement. I am not naive to think some of these guys deserve what they get.

AIBU? To think there's huge double standards? To call strangers with no reason to, wankers, but to also think the son shines out of your son's arses?

I know I'll probably ruffle some feathers but I'd genuinely like to know. And yes I have DC.

No the problem is when male A behaves badly so male B gets dismissed.

In my experience people very frequently don't believe women when they report assault, rape and relationship abuse. Victim blaming is a very common phenomenon. A very low percentage of rape cases result in convictions.

So you could ask why society has such a hard time believing victims of abuse, assault and rape. It is not specific to an "anti-man movement" imo because this is experienced by female victims as well. And the female victims far outnumber the male victims.

https://www.dvsn.org/october-2023-victim-blaming-what-is-it-and-why-does-it-happen/#:~:text=They%20may%20believe%20the%20victim,devastating%20effect%20on%20the%20victim.

I absolutely agree with you that toxic masculinity is the problem and whilst perpetuated by men, it also damages men.

it’s rarely those that perpetuate it who are damaged by it.

Because men do not call out male A. The police, the prosecution service, society in general do hardly anything regarding male A. Men should stop crying and start acting on behalf of a decent society if they want to be seen as a good 'un, individually and collectively. Stop blaming the women because they are now pissed off at the lack of male involvement sorting out the male violence in society.

I'd add that as a mother of sons, what do I want to see to protect them? Better access to mental health services for all. A serious drive to change our culture around alcohol use. For men to treat each other better, to stop attacking and killing each other. For employment conditions to be improved so there's no need to sacrifice work life balance, so that manual workers who's bodies fail them in their 50s aren't on the scrap heap. An end to the culture that wealth equals worth. Less wealth inequality. So many things to be done that would be the real game changers for male wellbeing. Which is why it's so frustrating to see people directing blame at women, telling us off for discussing our rape and murder lest we offend men. Women are not the cause of mens problems, and there are so many more productive ways to help men if that's your thing.

To add to my earlier post. Even the London mayor- a man - says men are the problem because they don't call out bad male behaviour.

https://www.london.gov.uk/maaate

Oooo, another patroniser. You really don't like it when a women speaks up for men do you?

You said yourself that men have this reputation due to their actions, but you are wrong. What did my brother do? What did the men close to me in my life do to deserve that? Nothing.

So it's not due to 'their' actions. It's due to some men's actions.

That's what sex class means.

This is really informative, thank you.

Toxic masculinity is definitely a much bigger contributing factor for sure. But good for thought in your response and it's something I'll look into, thank you.

'And the female victims far outnumber the male victims.'
@SquirrelMadness of course and I largely agree. But it doesn't mean that discussing the impact on males shouldn't happen, or have this backlash reaction. They're two separate things. I think people are getting confused (or I've not portrayed myself clearly) that I'm minimising women, or think speaking about this means silencing women and their experiences and the horrific crimes and everything in between that women go through daily and it's not the case. There's much a larger movement when it comes to women now and that's as it should be, and we still have a hell of a way to go. But I think it's important to recognise the men's side too. Not even to make it an equal voice, but for it to be recognised to some degree without women being angry about it.

I absolutely agree with all of this too.

I’ve said this before. For context I’m a man

we don’t know male A. He’s not our friend, we don’t like people like that. If he was a mate yes we would and do call it out but it’s rare. What’s more usual is that male A Is just some aggressive stranger and calling out any behaviour is likely to end in violence.

we can and do step up when needed to make sure a woman is safe, but calling out behaviour is very risky.

This is all spot on

There's far more that you can do and you know it. It's more than just overt violence. It's calling out the "locker room talk", it's condemning the cheaters, it's dropping the mate who can't quite behave himself when he's had a few too many. You do know these men, you're either ignoring it, or ignorant to it.

Nope. In my experience they get called out once and then dropped from friendship groups. They cluster together in like minded groups. That’s the challenge, how to change mindsets in group where they (do not) self police

You mentioned male victims who are not believed. I pointed out that female victims are also frequently not believed - so not an issue exclusive to men. There are plenty of articles and research into why people frequently blame victims. That was my point - the victim blaming issues are not exclusive to male victims.

And of the men who have assaulted and abused me, not a single one has faced any consequence. I don't think your experience of people rallying around the female is typical. Again, this is all relevant because you mentioned people not believing male victims as if this is something specific to men, and because you mentioned people rallying around the woman. So it is very relevant to point out that women are very frequently not believed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9136376/

Well that just can't be true. Because these men still exist and still have friends, family members and colleagues. You aren't calling them out because it's easier not to.

However the Met and government ministers were accused of having a tone-deaf response for suggesting women should flag down a bus.

It is not just in friendship groups where they cluster, it is societal.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister

OP I'm a mother to 2 sons, who was brought up by a single father - my mother left for a new life with a new boyfriend in another country when I was 8 and my sister was 4. I agree that there is an unfair opinion that all men are crap. Most women and even plenty of men have very low standards of expectation for male behaviour.
All men are to be held accountable for the actions of a small minority.
I have (of course, like most women) been the victim of sexual assault and also experienced male violence but I am sensible enough to understand that this isnt the fault of ALL males. The men in my life are OVERWHELMINGLY good decent people. However I do know that not all men are.
On Mumsnet particularly though, this opinion is always shut down with "not my Nigel" which frankly I feel is equally offensive as the "Karen" insults which the same people get (rightfully) offended by.
Society has a very long way to go before we reach equality for the sexes but blaming all men for the actions of a few isn't the way to get their IMHO.

I have honestly never seen a post that says ALL men are abusive, rapists and murderers and NO man is any good. The closest I've seen is some women saying that they have personally experienced only bad ones. So, given that, there really isn't any need to come on to threads where women are talking about bad men to remind everyone NAMALT. Because, honestly, we know! Just because we say 'men' instead of 'some men' doesn't mean we don't know that your DH might be very nice indeed, but, in the nicest possible way, it's neither relevant or of any interest. Because the thread is not about your DH, its about the bad men. By bringing your lovely and entirely irrelevant husband into the discussion, you are turning attention away from the topic at hand. Effectively you are hiding the bad men behind the good ones, by saying don't look over there at them, look over here at this nice one instead. That's why people accuse you of the 'not my Nigel thing', not because they don't believe your Nigel is nice.

OK, so we’ve established that this is a NAMALT thread.

Some posters (including OP) are getting confused between discussion of individuals (eg a man you know who’s been subjected to a false allegation) and discussion of the class of men.

Every individual deserves fair treatment- man or woman. The man should be entitled to a fair hearing and not pronounced guilty ‘because he’s a man.’

However, when discussing men as a group the women of MN are more than entitled to base their attitudes and advice on the statistics drawn from men as a group. For every man falsely accused, there will be probably hundreds if not thousands of girls/women assaulted or abused. The statistics reveal massive favour towards men when we’re looking at class analysis.

Misandry is barely even a thing, let alone a problem. Many women are fearful/distrustful of men, yes, but this is based on the experience of women down the ages. Women have every reason to dislike the class of people who systematically oppressed them since the dawn of time. This is at a class level of course. We’re perfectly able to take each individual on their merits.

And in response to the male poster who claimed no responsibility in any of this, I say this: privilege comes with responsibility, so while you experience male privilege, it is your obligation to take on some responsibility.

A lot of men talked about on this thread will have no respect for anyone be it women, police any one in authority, some even their own mothers.

I have zero contact with my sibling/parents due to how they've let their sons/Grandsons grow up, dismissing or ignoring bad behaviour by way of making excuses for them, every time the behaviour got worse...but it was ok cause so and so's DS's are no different...
No, it's enabling their wrongs.

They were terribly behaved from a young age and as years went by they took to crime and didnt even fear being infront of a judge.

It’s awful that you friend got accused of rape, if he didn’t do it.

But what’s you point? Men are more likely to raped (by another man) than get falsely accused. Even when men have raped women they have a tiny chance of being arrested, charged, convicted.

So that situation isn’t anti men, it’s one woman doing something awful. Explain how that situation is proof MN or any women are anti men. That woman wanted to hurt him. Not men. Him. It wasn’t an action aimed at hurting men in general. It was awful and she shouldn’t have done it. But it wasn’t aimed at men.

Your brothers situation has already been addressed. A drunk accused him of assault and nothing happened to him. The fact that’s it was a woman is neither here nor there. Do you believe men don’t accuse women of things? You don’t believe their report their ex to social services, or the police or trying and destroy their lives?

Any abuse in a relationship is awful. You do realise that many women don’t come forward because of stigma? Embarrassment, shame, fear. The feelings may come from a different place when the victim is a man, than it would for a woman but those feelings are still there.

How can you not see that women, who don’t like men have that mind set because of men. Not just the men they are related to, the many men them come in contact with. I have never met a woman, never mind several who hate men just cause.

Are you also aware that it’s believed more women than men attempt to commit suicide? It’s just that more men kill the selves in violent ways so less chance of being found and helped.

Since society is run mostly by males, why do you think some women disliking some men has anything to do the male side rate?

You do realise your daughter is far more likely to be sexually assaulted, then ignored by the police than she has of falsely accusing a man of doing something he didn’t.

You think that woman who have negatives views of men and also have sons are impacting the sons. Yet haven’t considered your ‘women are awful to men and men are suffering’ is likely impacting your daughter?

It is maddening that some women won’t see what’s right in front of them when it comes to the male/female power imbalance.

Power has corrupted the class of men since the first cave man overpowered the first cave woman or whatever.

I know that sounds dramatic, but I think it’s important to understand just how fundamental the power imbalance is. Of course, most men are civilised creatures these days, and many of them are excellent individuals!

But this stuff is hardwired in. There are plenty of men that just fucking hate women just for being women. They get off on hurting them and killing them. We know this. This is misogyny at its worst.

Misandry is… nothing.

Thanks for posting, you've made things a lot clearer. I know you don't speak for all females but after a lot of questions and a lot of posts on here this response has given me more clarity and perspective.