Mums of sons. (Hard hat on for this)

[Daniagainagainagainagain]

Apologies for the grabby title. I've NC'd for this as I have a few running threads currently with very outing and personal details on.

Anyway back to the point.
I see SO many threads on here where the topic about the thread is about a guy. It's not even necessarily bad about the bloke in question, but so many many posters just seem to hate men. Not give them the benefit of the doubt. Tear them a new arsehole for merely posting on MN asking for advice. There was a thread recently about a woman seeing a really nice guy, a gentlemen as she described him where he had been separated for literally YEARS but wasn't divorced. Turns out there were cultural differences meaning divorce in that country is very rare. People kept saying 'throw him back in the sea' 'he's a liar' one poster called him a wanker.. there was no evidence that he was a wanker and the OP seemed happy with the guy. Just more people clutching for their moment to berate men. It's always the guys fault on here no matter what.

It's always the same posters more often than not berating men, shooting them down, and just hating them. I wonder, do these women posters have sons? If so, do you think your sons are exempt from such awful insults because 'my boy would never'? I can't imagine these posters talking about their sons like that. So do you pick and choose, is it one rule for your sons and one for all other men?

Before it labelled being 'cool' I have just got out of a 10 year abusive relationship where ex cheated multiple times to the point of police involvement. I am not naive to think some of these guys deserve what they get.

AIBU? To think there's huge double standards? To call strangers with no reason to, wankers, but to also think the son shines out of your son's arses?

I know I'll probably ruffle some feathers but I'd genuinely like to know. And yes I have DC.

@BabaYetu @Fluufer even if I did bring it up. I have explained why I did. Do you still think that deserves comments saying I am lying about my cancer diagnosis? That I'm lying about my decade long abusive relationship? At the comments insinuating I'm a neglectful mum? Of course not. It's disgusting and says more about the person saying those comments to a cancer patient. A couple of posters have since come on here and wished me well and lightly apologised. You two just can't let it go. I've said all I have to say about it.

And the comment about knowing anyone personally, why would I need to apologise? I did actually state that it's horrific if anyone personally went through or knows someone who has been murdered. And I am truly sorry for anyone who has experienced or knows anyone who has gone through that. I asked a question because I was curious to see if they did know anyone personally, and if that was the driving point to their point of view. The question was then answered. I wasn't asking it to make a point or be nasty. I was genuinely curious.

Half the time?

Half the time women wouldn’t like their other parent to take responsibility, give them regular breaks? Take half the mental load?

You are having a laugh. The only time I have known women not want fathers involved is when the father is actively making life harder for them. Not sticking the agreement for care of the children, cancelling having the children last minute because of work, trying to stop them going on holiday or letting a friend babysit or consistently upsetting the DC or not caring for them properly.

I am sure you may find the odd woman who doesn’t want the father around just because. But it’s not half. It’s nowhere near.

The question was then answered. I wasn't asking it to make a point or be nasty. I was genuinely curious.

I don't believe you. I think you're back pedalling now you realise just how revolting your post was.

As a refresher, the poster quoted the number of women murdered each year by partners or ex partners and you said
"Do you personally know any woman who has been killed by their partner?"

Which drips of skepticism at the very least, and in my opinion disbelief and dismissal. No, you weren't "just curious" - you made no follow up to that and you didn't ask anyone else to dredge up the rape and domestic violence victims we know.

You also clarify you are asking "the mums of sons who seem to hate men, why are your sons exempt from that, just because they're an extension of you."

Many of us have replied that our sons are exempt from it because we've worked very hard to make sure they know about male privilige, male violence, toxic masculinity, and that they reject that in favour of being well rounded and civilised human beings.

We've also told you our sons are more than aware how revolting many men's treatment of women is, that they see it in school, in work and out socialising. That they challenge it when they hear it because they were raised by women determined not to add to the problem by "letting boys be boys."

Your original premise has been answered often on this thread. You ignore replies because it doesn't suit your narrative of "Mumsnet women are nasty man-hating harridans."

We raise our sons like we raise our daughters - to be decent, strong, respectful and thoughtful individuals.

Stop being disingenuous.

You weren’t curious. And you didn’t actually address anyone that said they did. Despite it being pointed out how callous that came across, you weren’t bothered.

And what difference does it make if some of us know women who have been murdered by their partner. It happens. Multiple times a week. What does someone knowing someone it happened to actually make to the thread. Or what does it change about your opinion.

You are excepting compassion because you have cancer, I don’t know anyone who has cancer but I can still have compassion for people who do. You want compassion for your circumstances but showed non.

You haven’t addressed anyone who has, politely, argued against any of your points. Because you are being disingenuous.

Don't ask me then if you're not going to believe my reply. :)

Enjoy your evening.

Perhaps we should be asking why there are so many misogynistic men around with daughters. Why do they hate women so much when they have daughters 🤷🏽‍♀️

That's a valid point to be far, I'd ask them the same question.

You are completely projecting from the comfortable bubble of your positive experiences of “wonderful men”. There’s a flip side to your experiences, and that’s the bubble of the women who have only ever had negative experiences of men.

Believe it or not, not all women and girls have known good examples of men and that includes family members.

I don’t think it makes them men haters to vocalise their experiences. Very very tired maybe.

By all accounts you sound like one of the lucky ones, that’s all.

Unpopular opinion but OP is right, it's the gender wars (as in the male v female not the trans -related one) and how social media seems to incentivise conflict with its algorithms... hence why you get "all men are x" and "all women are z".

I agree, the algorithms on social media especially TikTok are quite damaging really. I noticed it when I was going through my breakup with DH that more and more 'men are shit' themed posts were coming up on my feed. If I saw those a year or two ago it would've put my head in a spin and I could've easily had that mentality. But due to a lot of work (despite so many posters telling me that my vision is screwed and I need therapy) with a lot of work from therapy I don't see as all men bad.

But you're so right, social media is the worst for it. I think MN is the wordy platform for the double standards, but TikTok and insta are equally as bad for the anti men movement.

Why are you so reluctant to attribute the "anti men movement" to male behaviour?

The anti men movement isnt helping anyone

What do you define as the "anti men movement"? And how do you know it isn't helping anyone? I suspect what you mean is, men don't like women talking about male behavior. In which case, they'd be better off directing their enegery into holding other men to account, rather than telling women to stop talking about it.

Define anti men.

And how exactly is it affecting them?

What are they missing out on?
How are they changing their behaviours?

@Fluufer oh, you're still breathing down my neck today again then.

I'm not reluctant to recognise the 'anti woman' movement.
This thread is about misandry and the hatred towards men. So that's what I'm talking about.

I have also stated on many posts where posters have written about their experiences, that they are horrific.

@Fluufer and I'm not reluctant to attribute the behaviour of men. The point of this thread is that sometimes ALL men are painted with this brush.

I know full well that men's behaviour has contributed to this. As I've posted many times, I've just come out of a very long abusive relationship. I'm aware.

I don't hate all men though and I don't think they should all be smeared with this campaign.

So it all boils down to NAMALT.

Pretty much!

I didn't mention an "anti woman movement". I'm asking why you have a problem with women talking about problematic male behavior.

I don't think anybody hates "all men". But we equally don't need to preface every discussion with NAMALT. We all know NAMALT, it doesn't need to pointed out constantly to protect mens feelings.

OP you specifically invited mothers of sons to answer a specific question. I'm a mother of two adult sons and I took the time to answer your question early on in your thread. Could I ask that you return the courtesy and answer for my why you as a mother of a daughter are so invested in the attitude towards men on MN? Because its clear as the thread has progressed this isn't simply a matter of casual interest. You are passionate about the wellbeing and protection of men, quite disproportionately so given the level of harm they could possibly face from the opinions of women on a site most barely know exists. Men are very well served by our society and face significantly less risk from 'misandry' than women from misogyny. You are not a man or a protective mother of one, so why are you nailing your flag so firmly to this cause?

Apologies if I didn't see your earlier question, there were a lot of replies to this thread and was hard to keep up.

One of the main reasons I feel strongly about it, is from treatment I have witnessed with male family and friends. These situations I have witness are factual and not based on hearsay or what the male in question has told me. I won't go into too much details as one of the scenarios is a current legal case, but one person who is close to me was falsely accused of rape. The accusation has destroyed his life and did destroy his reputation. It has been proven that it was a false allegation out of spite and is going through the official channels, but the backlash this person got, and the turmoil this person got is heartbreaking. He will be able to rebuild his life but his life very nearly got destroyed. He got physically harmed due to the false allegation. People ferried around the woman in question.
I listed an example of where my brother very nearly got done for assaulting a female, when he was trying to get the keys off her to stop her drink driving.
Another male very close to me was in an extremely abusive relationship. Abusive behaviour and actions witnessed by many. He didn't speak out for a long time because no one would believe him. Everyone always rallies around the female in question. Another family members ex girlfriend faked a pregnancy and miscarriage when he broker up with her. You see on here all the time 'I'm always skeptical when a guy says his ex was abusive.' In many cases yes, the guys an arsehole. But the anti-men movement is damaging. Hugely. I have many more I could list on but I won't.

I am not saying women are to blame here. Or mothers. i would be thrilled if I was lucky enough to have a son one day. I am not saying that men need 'saving' or I need to be a 'hero.' But it is a problem. Suicide is the biggest male killer in the U.K. and I can't help but think the 'anti-men' movement is partly to blame.

It doesn't take away or discredit anything that women have had to go through and continue to do so these days. I'm a woman myself and am not exempt or unexposed to the misogyny, the fear, the sexual assaults, the silencing or anything else that comes with being a woman. I know in most cases, the man ends up being the abuser. But to have so much uproar and anger on this thread for just starting a thread on the subject and talking about it, has sort of proved my point. We should be able to talk about it freely without being branded as 'cool' or 'a hero' or 'pathetic' or 'uneducated,' as I've been called on here. I'm a degree educated woman in a heavily male dominated career. I'm just saying what I'm seeing. I do also see horrific behaviour towards women, I've had it done to me.

There's a lot of anger in the world towards males. Some is justified, but not all.

To clarify my point about the guy in the abusive relationship. We all told him we saw it, and made it known to him that we were aware. But he still didn't speak out due to the stigma. He was never in denial that he was being abused. He just knew that he wouldn't be taken seriously.

There's a lot of anger in the world towards males.
Because of THEIR actions, and the inability of their own sex class to call it out.

Women call it out but are labelled anti-men who hate all men. I suggest you think hard about who would benefit from that.

Thank you for your detailed response. I can see how the experience you have witnesses has given given you a certain perspective.

I would say though that if you genuinely care about male suicide rates (I do too) then it's a good idea to do some research into the causes. Because perpetuating the myth that it's caused by 'anti men' culture is actually quite dangerous (to the men you wish to protect).

For one thing any alleged 'anti men' rhetoric is hugely outweighed by the huge amount of pro male bias in pretty much every other aspect of life, and MN 'culture' is not going to change that any time soon.

For another, there is no evidence at all that women being critical of male problem behaviour in female dominated spaces that most men don't even frequent has even the most tenuous link to causes of suicide in men.
The causes are undiagnosed mental illness, financial pressure, substance misuse, loneliness, work problems and relationship breakdown. Arguably many of these things are exacerbated by a culture of toxic masculinity where 'real men' succeed, get rich, cope, don't talk about their problems, but that's an entirely different problem to an anti member culture. Personally as I've said, I think any such culture exists in such small isolated pockets it has no real reach anyway. And even if it did, there is no link to suicide.
This is important. Because if we go about saying male suicide is caused by something it isn't, we overlook the actual causes and fail to target help where its needed.