Mums of sons. (Hard hat on for this)

[Daniagainagainagainagain]

Apologies for the grabby title. I've NC'd for this as I have a few running threads currently with very outing and personal details on.

Anyway back to the point.
I see SO many threads on here where the topic about the thread is about a guy. It's not even necessarily bad about the bloke in question, but so many many posters just seem to hate men. Not give them the benefit of the doubt. Tear them a new arsehole for merely posting on MN asking for advice. There was a thread recently about a woman seeing a really nice guy, a gentlemen as she described him where he had been separated for literally YEARS but wasn't divorced. Turns out there were cultural differences meaning divorce in that country is very rare. People kept saying 'throw him back in the sea' 'he's a liar' one poster called him a wanker.. there was no evidence that he was a wanker and the OP seemed happy with the guy. Just more people clutching for their moment to berate men. It's always the guys fault on here no matter what.

It's always the same posters more often than not berating men, shooting them down, and just hating them. I wonder, do these women posters have sons? If so, do you think your sons are exempt from such awful insults because 'my boy would never'? I can't imagine these posters talking about their sons like that. So do you pick and choose, is it one rule for your sons and one for all other men?

Before it labelled being 'cool' I have just got out of a 10 year abusive relationship where ex cheated multiple times to the point of police involvement. I am not naive to think some of these guys deserve what they get.

AIBU? To think there's huge double standards? To call strangers with no reason to, wankers, but to also think the son shines out of your son's arses?

I know I'll probably ruffle some feathers but I'd genuinely like to know. And yes I have DC.

Well said 👏

It's enough times to be a pattern.
And it's the pattern that's important in these situations.

It's an age old question, how many people have to be hurt(in this case have miserable lives) so that one innocent man is ok. Do we tell ALL the women it's ok to stay in shit circumstances? Or do we tell all the women to leave?
The script is useful because it's so commonplace, if we use the script as the point where it's all gone Pete tong, then we save a whole bunch of women from a desperate life. I know which I'd prefer. But you seem to think women should just stay, take the shit life, even after you left your shit life a year ago.

I think that it’s ‘anti men’ to hold them to such a low standard that they’re considered a prince amongst men for paying child support or looking after their own children once in a while.

My posts include detailed medical threads with a new medical diagnosis my daughter is going through. Also a cancer diagnosis that I have received which is very rare and outing, due to my age.

I'd rather those not be bought to this thread.

Probably similar reasons why others NC when they post. Nothing behind it, simply that.

If that was aimed at me, I have not implied such a thing.

I don't think that was aimed at me, but just for the record in case anyone thinks it is.
I find it hard to believe anyone would imply that.

Christ, threads really do get wild.

@Fluufer

Well if you actually read instead of being rude, you'll see that earlier on in the thread I said I 'resonated with it takes 7 times to leave an abuser.' I know it's hard to leave. Believe me, I've just done it! I have never said I'm better than anyone. That's what YOU said.

Where on earth have I said that it's the woman's fault if they're being abused? Or they 'put up' with domestic abuse? One last time.. I said if someone (man or woman) settles with someone who puts their hobbies first which is where the shining golf balls scenario came from, if she chooses to stay and have children with them. Then she is 'putting up with' someone who has shit priorities. That's not saying it's the woman's fault for the man's behaviour. But some women DO choose to put up with shit behaviour. Vastly different than putting up with domestic abuse.
*
Domestic abuse more often than not manifests over the relationship.* Youre love bombed at the beginning and it starts with shouting, then swearing, then punching a door, then so on. DV is VERY different to a guy who chooses golf over his partner. Both not right, but one much worse than the other.

There's no false ignorance, it's my experience. You are no better either. :)

Someone has asked for evidence. Those denying is the evidence.
Some are blatant.
Some are masquerading.
Some do it because they're being supportive.
Some quote sociology/humanities theory.
Some are othering.
Some invent a straw man argument to support a non-existent issue.
Some just quite plainly like being a troll.
Some want to be popular.

I'm just pointing our your hypocrisy, which you are doubling down on in that post.
A man choosing golf over his partner and kids absolutely can be a form, or part of, abuse. Abuse is more just violence. You put up with cheating and violence, so I'm sure you can quite easily imagine why some women put up with golf...

You have said that if a man behaves badly, it is his wife's fault for putting up with it. Ignoring your wife and child to play golf is bad behaviour. It is neglect.

So you are saying that in some situations, women are to blame for putting up with bad behaviour. But not in your situation. This is the double standard.

I am well aware of how abuse manifests in a relationship. Of course I know that being abusive is worse than being neglectful.

But what I am repeatedly saying and you seem to be willfully misunderstanding is that NOBODY is responsible for their partner's bad behaviour. Yes some bad behaviour is worse than others but in all cases the only person responsible is the person behaving badly.

A favourite hobby is not as of yet listed as a type of Domestic Abuse in the law, so I agree it is different from domestic abuse.

Yes, an abuser can also have a time consuming hobby, but it’s not that which is part of or a cause of the abuse.

Obviously I am excluding addictions- alcohol, drugs, gambling these are not hobbies.

On choosing a hobby over a partner or child, this is bad behaviour and the responsibility of whoever chooses it, but I think we can agree that not all bad behaviour is domestic abuse.

Abusive behaviors can absolutely include excessive time and money spent on hobbies. I wasn't talking about legally defined abuse, as I'm sure we're all well aware that abusive behavior is more broad than that.

I don't think it's double standards. Part of human nature is that our opinions on people/things are massively influenced by their our own past experiences.

The mother of a boy/man will naturally have different opinions about the son she has raised and the sons of people she knows, because her experiences with them will be positive, where her experiences with men outside of her close circle may have been very negative.

I've been lucky enough not to have had any majorly traumatic relationships that have made me feel like this about all men. To be fair it's probably because I'm the daughter of a child protection social worker and DV survivor, who made me learn the cycle of abuse by heart amongst other things. Rather than use her experiences to create fear, she used them as a way to empower me by making sure I could spot early patterns in behaviour and keep myself safe in relationships.

FWIW I have a daughter.

I didn't say that all bad behaviour is domestic abuse, or that giving a hobby priority over your partner is as bad as domestic abuse.

I said that nobody is responsible or to blame for their partner's behaviour.

In a healthy relationship, both adults are responsible for their own behaviour. If my partner abuses me, it is not my fault. If my partner neglects me, it is not my fault. If my partner prefers playing golf to being with me, it is not my fault. These situations are not the same. But in all of them, it is not my fault how my partner behaves.

I actually think that understanding and accepting this is very important for having healthy relationships. Feeling responsible for your partner's behaviour can make you much more vulnerable to abuse.

By "family" I mean your daughter, and any wider family members who may be impacted by supporting you with the multiple stressors you are experiencing - domestic abuse, cancer, a sick child. You have a lot on your plate OP and men can sort themselves out. You are treating this thread as though it's an occupation (eg phrases like "back to it" before writing another quarrelsome post) and it looks a lot like you're avoiding your rl situation by having this extended argument that isn't going to change anyone's mind.

I rather think that excessive time and money on hobbies often coincide with abusive behaviours but are not abusive behaviours themselves.

It is a real disservice to the victims of domestic abuse to conflate even very bad, relationship destroying behaviours with domestic abuse. For example, cheating isn’t domestic abuse, but we do also see that cheating will often coincide with abuse.

Yes, I agree, I was writing to fluufner who I think is on a worry path of minimising domestic abuse.

My husband, father, brother, father in law and brothers in law are all incredibly decent men who behave exactly as you would wish any man to. So I know what good men look like. Because of that I have a seriously low tolerance for the many shitty ones.

Ah I see. Apologies, I was getting wound up by the OP blaming a woman for her husband playing too much golf and wasn't reading posts properly!

I do think that abuse often starts with small behaviours that don't really meet the definition of abuse and can be easily explained away. And then the behaviour often slowly escalates into abuse without the victim realising, frog in a pot. I also understand what you're saying though, prioritising hobbies isn't in itself abusive and not all neglectful behaviour will lead to abuse.

I completely agree. I actually think mumsnet is so unpleasant at the moment. Its like a them vs us with men at the moment with no in-between. It's so hateful and not balanced.

Personally, the moment the OP asked “how many women murdered by their partners we personally knew” she had moved into indefensible territory.

As for minimising murder because “it’s very few, and men kill other men even more” when we have 1 in 4 women raped or sexually assaulted and rape convictions in single figure percentages…

Fuck me.

I’m glad my sons hold men to a higher standard than the OP and her socks buddies.

Spot on

Yeah, that's what's really disgusted me.

Yes, I was agreeing with the OP & you, the allegations of hypocrisy to you both did not sit well with me.

Exactly, poor behaviours are often a prelude to abuse and then coincide with it. The boiled frog analogy is a good one. I do think it is important to not blur terr definitions of domestic abuse. I liked how you wrote up there are bad behaviours that are bad but different from domestic abuse and not as bad as domestic abuse.

Also the throwaway comment about false accusations ruining men’s careers…how many women are doing that? It reminds me of things I’ve read from men online saying things like, ‘If I smile at a women I’ll go to prison for harassment’, or this gem…‘I’m afraid to be alone with a woman because she’ll accuse me of rape’.