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To be horrified by fire attack on Jewish synagogue in France by pro Palestinian terrorist

204 replies

Helpabojttown · 25/08/2024 14:02

This is awful, my thoughts are with the French and worldwide Jewish community.

French police arrest synagogue blast suspect https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y3d4v43gjo

A CCTV image purportedly showing a suspected attacker at the synagogue in La Grande-Motte

French police arrest synagogue blast suspect

The man was shot and injured by police after he opened fire on the officers in southern France, reports say.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y3d4v43gjo

OP posts:
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7
Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:33

It's like when Islamic terrorists target the UK. You can't say that it has nothing to do with our actions. A lot of it is in response to political decisions and actions that the UK has made. And some innocent person gets stabbed in retaliation. That individual person likely had nothing to do with any political decisions made. It's the same when it's a UK soldier that gets stabbed. To the terrorist they are a representation of the UK's actions. It's wrong, of course. But to say that it is all because of othering or scapegoating is wrong. It's a retaliation for the UK's actions.

Comedycook · 28/08/2024 14:41

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:33

It's like when Islamic terrorists target the UK. You can't say that it has nothing to do with our actions. A lot of it is in response to political decisions and actions that the UK has made. And some innocent person gets stabbed in retaliation. That individual person likely had nothing to do with any political decisions made. It's the same when it's a UK soldier that gets stabbed. To the terrorist they are a representation of the UK's actions. It's wrong, of course. But to say that it is all because of othering or scapegoating is wrong. It's a retaliation for the UK's actions.

Do you think this about all types of hatred?

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:44

Comedycook · 28/08/2024 14:28

I don't think it's correct to say that "anti-Jewish persecution has never been caused by something the Jews did, said, or thought." That doesn't mean that anti-semitism is their fault or that they deserve it or "brought it on themselves

This statement is contradictory

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well. What I'm saying is that some of the current anti-semitism is driven by Israel's actions in Gaza. The Israeli government (Jewish people) and some but not all Jewish citizens in Israel support Israel's actions. Many people therefore hold these particular Jews responsible for what is happening in Gaza. They then extrapolate this to blaming all Jews.

This is part of the cause of the current rise in anti-semitism. There is cause (Israel's actions) and effect (anti-semitism). I am absolutely not in any way saying this is right or moral. But it is too simplistic to say that the current rise in anti-semitism has nothing to do with the actions of SOME Jews.

I absolutely condemn all anti-semitism and blaming all people of a faith/ethnicity for the views or actions of some of them is wrong. Jewish people have been treated abominably in history and currently and I agree that much of it is due to othering/scapegoating/ethnic hatred etc.

My only point is that I think it's too simplistic to say that the current rise in anti-semitism has absolutely nothing to do with the actions of 1. the Jewish state and 2. some individual Jews within that state. I'm surprised that this seems controversial.

User6874356 · 28/08/2024 14:47

It’s disgusting. So much hatred and demonisation of Jewish people. So much justification of their racism and violence. Even the supposed anti racist marches are full of people screaming about how racism is a Zionist/Jewish conspiracy.

it’s a very frightening time to be a Jew

User6874356 · 28/08/2024 14:50

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:33

It's like when Islamic terrorists target the UK. You can't say that it has nothing to do with our actions. A lot of it is in response to political decisions and actions that the UK has made. And some innocent person gets stabbed in retaliation. That individual person likely had nothing to do with any political decisions made. It's the same when it's a UK soldier that gets stabbed. To the terrorist they are a representation of the UK's actions. It's wrong, of course. But to say that it is all because of othering or scapegoating is wrong. It's a retaliation for the UK's actions.

So if muslims were attacked in the uk because of the violence of Hamas/Isis/Hezbollah/the Taliban etc, that’s retaliation not scapegoating? Is that what you’re saying?

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:50

Comedycook · 28/08/2024 14:41

Do you think this about all types of hatred?

No not all types of hatred. Hatred that is based on political ideology yes usually. It doesn't make it right. It's just pointing out cause and effect.

Hatred based on political ideology is usually due to the actions of some people in a particular political group. The aggressor then blames all people in that group and retaliates against all of them. It's wrong. But to say that the retaliation had nothing to do with the actions of people within that political group is wrong. It's probably not the only reason but it is definitely one of the reasons.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:53

User6874356 · 28/08/2024 14:50

So if muslims were attacked in the uk because of the violence of Hamas/Isis/Hezbollah/the Taliban etc, that’s retaliation not scapegoating? Is that what you’re saying?

It's both retaliation and scapegoating. And both are wrong. But the UK's actions are still part of the cause. It doesn't justify the effect, and doesnt mean that the UK was wrong to do whatever it did, but you can't deny that the UK's action is part of the cause. I don't see how this is controversial.

PinkTonic · 28/08/2024 15:02

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 14:44

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well. What I'm saying is that some of the current anti-semitism is driven by Israel's actions in Gaza. The Israeli government (Jewish people) and some but not all Jewish citizens in Israel support Israel's actions. Many people therefore hold these particular Jews responsible for what is happening in Gaza. They then extrapolate this to blaming all Jews.

This is part of the cause of the current rise in anti-semitism. There is cause (Israel's actions) and effect (anti-semitism). I am absolutely not in any way saying this is right or moral. But it is too simplistic to say that the current rise in anti-semitism has nothing to do with the actions of SOME Jews.

I absolutely condemn all anti-semitism and blaming all people of a faith/ethnicity for the views or actions of some of them is wrong. Jewish people have been treated abominably in history and currently and I agree that much of it is due to othering/scapegoating/ethnic hatred etc.

My only point is that I think it's too simplistic to say that the current rise in anti-semitism has absolutely nothing to do with the actions of 1. the Jewish state and 2. some individual Jews within that state. I'm surprised that this seems controversial.

But what is happening in Gaza is a war. A war which started with the massacre of 1200 Jewish people in their own country who were subjected to the most unimaginable depravity. The attitude of so many to ‘what is happening in Gaza’ is itself driven by antisemitism. Jews being held to a different standard to everyone else.

SababaToo · 28/08/2024 15:15

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 15:24

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Disinformation, propaganda and the influence of social media algorithms creating echo chambers of opinion also have a lot to do with prejudicial attitudes and hatred towards groups of people.

I've seen many pro-Palestinian commentators refusing to believe the evidence of the atrocities carried out against the Jews on 7th October. It doesn't fit in with their narrative so they deny that it happened. Often to ridiculous lengths.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 15:28

PinkTonic · 28/08/2024 15:02

But what is happening in Gaza is a war. A war which started with the massacre of 1200 Jewish people in their own country who were subjected to the most unimaginable depravity. The attitude of so many to ‘what is happening in Gaza’ is itself driven by antisemitism. Jews being held to a different standard to everyone else.

I also think a lot of it is ignorance. As I said above, people believing what they've read on social media without any critical thinking. There were interviews of people taking part in pro-Palestian marches who didn't even know what happened on 7th October. They just latched onto a supposed "virtue"-signalling left-wing cause knowing absolutely nothing about what they were protesting against.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 15:37

Its a bit like the riots that started after the stabbing of the little girls at the Taylor Swift dance class. Started due to a social media rumour that the murderer was an asylum seeker/immigrant.

You can't say that it had nothing to do with the actions of asylum seekers and immigrants. There have been well-publicised incidents of immigrants and asylum seekers carrying out horrific crimes against UK citizens. This is part of the cause of the riots.

It doesn't matter that the guy was a UK citizen or that British white males carry out more crimes than immigrants or that the rioters were racist idiots that just wanted a fun evening out smashing stuff up with their mates.

Part of the cause of the riots was immigration. That doesn't make immigration wrong. It doesn't make the rioters right to have acted the way they did. But in terms of cause and effect, immigration was a part of the cause. If there was no immigration at all in the UK then these riots would not have happened at the time and in the way that they did.

SababaToo · 28/08/2024 15:38

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

PinkTonic · 28/08/2024 15:40

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 15:28

I also think a lot of it is ignorance. As I said above, people believing what they've read on social media without any critical thinking. There were interviews of people taking part in pro-Palestian marches who didn't even know what happened on 7th October. They just latched onto a supposed "virtue"-signalling left-wing cause knowing absolutely nothing about what they were protesting against.

But why does the ignorance play such a massive part in this specific case? Why virtue signalling marches about Palestinians when we don’t see the same about Muslims being killed in Syria or China? What is it about this specific conflict which causes so many people to become so exercised? Why is this conflict a ‘left wing cause’? So many questions….

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 15:47

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. I'm not saying that Israel's actions are the only cause of the current anti-semitism. Not at all. But Israel's actions are one of the causes. Not for every person (eg the idiots who don't even know what's going on politically but just jump on the bandwagon) and definitely not the only cause. Anti-semitism has been rife throughout history.

All I'm saying is that you can't say that Israel's actions have nothing to do with the current rise in anti-semitism. Again, I just don't see how this is in any way controversial. I'm not saying that it's right or that they deserve it. Or that Israel's actions have been in any way wrong (personally I'm on the fence about some of the military decisions made but i am not a poltiical or military expert so dont think i am informed enough to be able to make a judgment on this). But it is absolutely one of the causes of the current rise in anti-semitism.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 15:56

PinkTonic · 28/08/2024 15:40

But why does the ignorance play such a massive part in this specific case? Why virtue signalling marches about Palestinians when we don’t see the same about Muslims being killed in Syria or China? What is it about this specific conflict which causes so many people to become so exercised? Why is this conflict a ‘left wing cause’? So many questions….

I've seen lots of protests about Syria, Iran etc but I'm in London often and go through Trafalgar square so see a lot of protests like this.

Ignorance plays a part in a lot of things that cause people to become virtue signallers. A colleague at work was at a trans rights protest and was telling us all about it. She didn't have the faintest idea about the issues eg Cass report, safety of puberty blockers, transwomen in women's prisons and hospital wards, level of neurodivergence in teenage girls etc. She was shocked when we told her about it. To be fair to her I think she did some research and never mentioned it again. But some people become entrenched in their virtue signalling and deny the facts (even doctors - see the BMA refuting the Cass report because it doesn't align with their political views).

But yes I suspect underlying anti-semitism does have a lot to do with going on pro-Palestian marches being seen as the right thing to do in some sections of society.

The alignment with the left wing I don't understand either. Except that it seems like another way to virtue signal, which is generally a left wing thing.

SababaToo · 28/08/2024 16:06

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SensibleSigma · 28/08/2024 16:12

@Bluemincat you are saying that individuals around the world are targeted because of the behaviour of their Governments. I don’t disagree.
Individuals shouldn’t be blamed for the behaviour of their Government. I think you agree.

When you say This is part of the cause of the current rise in anti-semitism. There is cause (Israel's actions) and effect (anti-semitism). I am absolutely not in any way saying this is right or moral. But it is too simplistic to say that the current rise in anti-semitism has nothing to do with the actions of SOME Jews.

You are saying some Jews are being held responsible for other Jews. PPs would say that only happens because of ingrained antisemitism. In the same way attacks on mosques happen because of racism, not because of Islamist terrorism.

We don’t usually see attacks on English people because of what the US government has done, or attacks on French people because of what the British government has done.

79Helene · 28/08/2024 16:22

The alignment with the left wing I don't understand either. Except that it seems like another way to virtue signal, which is generally a left wing thing.

@Bluemincat You might find this article interesting, it's a few years old though but a pretty good explainer of antisemitism on the left and why people get seduced by the 'philosophy'. It's a very binary and un-nuanced worldview rooted in anti-capitalism/anti-West, which on the hard left is often very pro-Assad/Putin and hugely antisemitic.

https://fathomjournal.org/antisemitism-and-the-left-a-memoir/

Antisemitism and the Left: A Memoir

'I swam in a sea of antisemitism for years and didn’t notice the water was filthy,’ writes Kathleen Hayes in a memoir of her life in the revolutionary left. The beliefs that give our lives mean...

https://fathomjournal.org/antisemitism-and-the-left-a-memoir

SammyScrounge · 28/08/2024 16:34

Bullbreedbliss · 25/08/2024 20:35

Personally I’m more horrified by all the schools that have been bombed in Gaza but I guess we all have different priorities with mine being dead children.

You'll have been devastated by the events of Oct. 7th then. You know, Hamas's attacks on babies and children as well as youngsters at the music festivals.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 17:27

SensibleSigma · 28/08/2024 16:12

@Bluemincat you are saying that individuals around the world are targeted because of the behaviour of their Governments. I don’t disagree.
Individuals shouldn’t be blamed for the behaviour of their Government. I think you agree.

When you say This is part of the cause of the current rise in anti-semitism. There is cause (Israel's actions) and effect (anti-semitism). I am absolutely not in any way saying this is right or moral. But it is too simplistic to say that the current rise in anti-semitism has nothing to do with the actions of SOME Jews.

You are saying some Jews are being held responsible for other Jews. PPs would say that only happens because of ingrained antisemitism. In the same way attacks on mosques happen because of racism, not because of Islamist terrorism.

We don’t usually see attacks on English people because of what the US government has done, or attacks on French people because of what the British government has done.

I'm sure that anti-semitism has a lot to do with the current targeting of Jews. And that racism has a lot to do with the targeting of mosques. But it's also because of Israel's actions in Gaza and Islamic terrorism, respectively. There's not just one cause.

I don't understand your point in your last paragraph. No one is arguing that? Jews in the UK are being persecuted (in part) for what SOME Jews are doing in Israel/Gaza. The same as some Islamic terrorists target UK citizens (including children) in response to the UK's actions in Syria/Afghanistan etc. The link is being Jewish or living in the UK, respectively. They dont care that the British Jewish Rabbi whose Synagogue they're attacking has no influence on the Israeli government, just as the Islamic terrorist doesn't care that the little girl they blow up has nothing to do with UK foreign policy in Syria/Afghanistan. They are targeting a particular section of society in retaliation for that section of society's actions.

There's no parallel with the hypothetical situation of French people being attacked because of the UK government's actions.

Bluemincat · 28/08/2024 17:29

SammyScrounge · 28/08/2024 16:34

You'll have been devastated by the events of Oct. 7th then. You know, Hamas's attacks on babies and children as well as youngsters at the music festivals.

Or that Hamas deliberately situate their operational centres in/under schools and hospitals. Hamas see women and children as collateral damage.

SammyScrounge · 28/08/2024 22:10

Or that Hamas has sworn repeatedly that it would carry out many more Oct 7ths in the future.
Israel is entitled to protect its future.

deragod · 29/08/2024 00:27

79Helene · 28/08/2024 16:22

The alignment with the left wing I don't understand either. Except that it seems like another way to virtue signal, which is generally a left wing thing.

@Bluemincat You might find this article interesting, it's a few years old though but a pretty good explainer of antisemitism on the left and why people get seduced by the 'philosophy'. It's a very binary and un-nuanced worldview rooted in anti-capitalism/anti-West, which on the hard left is often very pro-Assad/Putin and hugely antisemitic.

https://fathomjournal.org/antisemitism-and-the-left-a-memoir/

Another layer of the left antisemitism is, as the "left" would call it, colonial mindset. Owen Jones is the best example of that, at the beginning of the Russian full scale invasion on Ukraine he, without any hesitation, posted on twitter that Russia has a right to do that because Ukraine was always theirs sphere of interest. Thus, Ukrainians are not subjects but objects of politics and history - that is, imho, a classical definition of colonialism. And Russia is the biggest colonial power that ever existed. British Empire does not have as many killed languages, cultures and nations on its record as Russia throughout the centuries. These people have the superiority complex and they think about world in these realms. That is why they understand Russia, the only twist in this mindset is negative- exceptionalims - only USA/UK/"The West" can do wrong. But when it comes to thinking about people and nations that were objectified by Russia they can only see through the colonial lenses. I would say "The left" is not able to see more than the other to Russian greatness. Russia has culture, language and in general everything is great. The West is not great anymore because it did bad things. However, Russia is different because of history. As Russia was the enemy during Cold War, and of course it was an enemy because of communism, there was nothing else, it must be the good one. All nations that Russia colonised are just inferior - Easter Europe* - no distinctive cultures, no distinctive languages with their quirks etc. just amalgamate of some stupid people. Eastern Europe is not even defined geographically, there is only one factor that is common for all countries that ever been counted as Eastern European - is the fact of being victim of Russian imperialism.
The biggest enemy of our exceptionally great but bad "West" must be right, because it is a match of equals. Communist Russia was great at playing the saviour of the world, but why people are so ignorant about history is beyond me.

A man who described genocide and made it a crime, Rafal Lemkin was a Polish Jew, born when Poland was still under rule of three imperialistic powers and, to say it frankly, Jews in parts of Poland that were incorporated by Russia had it really bad. Pogroms, ghettos, and all the pleasantries. However, ethnic Poles were also repressed*. In his original proposition, that was rejected at the UN Conference under Soviet influence, it was very clear that historical experiences of Polish nationals were important in his process. Russia just cannot let the world learn that. history of Poland or Ukraine is much closer to the case of Israel than Irish experiences. Russia strategically has to be a champion of the underdog (in this case Arabs, doesn't matter which country and at what cost).

Ukraine, as an independent country is younger than most countries 'the left' would chose to point on the map when asked about the British colonialism. Pakistan - older, Zimbabwe - 11 years of independence more etc. Poland was eradicated of the map of Europe for longer than 100 years. Similarly to Jewish Diaspora the language and culture survived without the country only by the power of community and its determination. Try to tell Poles that they should apologise to Germans, Austrians and Russians for not accepting that they decided it is their land now and Poland should never try for independence - well, some Germans believe that half of modern Poland should be German, but that's another issue.
I have a friend who is a Silesian, now region of Poland, but for many years it was German territory. The history is complicated, but she said many times she has no doubts about Israel's right of existence. It is easy to say that some nations should never have their own states, on their own land when you were never colonised. This experience of non- experience is shared by "the left" of the west and Russians.

Long story short: The western left is not as anti colonial as they like to think. Sorry for the rumbling, it is late and I am bit emotional on the subject, but I hope in the end it is readable.

*Soviets were never marxists, they had their own version written by Lenin, and the system was nowhere near communism as described by Marx.

**funny thing, Herzl, the guy who invented the evil zionism was not that keen on "Eastern European" Jews as well, exactly because of this historical narrative plus, as it is usually with colonised countries, Jews from "Eastern Europe" were absolutely poor and used to not exactly ideal living conditions.

* Wikipedia states that Lemkin was solely motivated by his experience of Holocaust, that is not true. He started theoretical work on definition before the IIWW. He was shocked when learnt about Massacre of Armenians by Turkish forces. I think, and yes of course I am unhinged blahblabhla, it is another case of narrative antisemitism. A Jewish man could not possibly do something for the benefit of humanity, Jews always think about themselves.

blackcherryconserve · 29/08/2024 10:03

PinkTonic · 28/08/2024 15:40

But why does the ignorance play such a massive part in this specific case? Why virtue signalling marches about Palestinians when we don’t see the same about Muslims being killed in Syria or China? What is it about this specific conflict which causes so many people to become so exercised? Why is this conflict a ‘left wing cause’? So many questions….

I think you know the answer! No other case involves Jewish people.