Holiday with another family and behaviour of their ASD child

[upoutandin87]

Currently on holiday with my family and another family (old friends) they have 2 older children same age as my kids and they also now have a 6 yr old. We have holidayed with them before but not since the youngest was born. Youngest is ND (autism and suspected ADHD). My son is 15 and autistic so I know about ASD but there DD seems out of control and we can't cope with it. She swears spits hits and throws furniture if she doesn't get her own way - there is no routine and she basically gets what she wants - she slapped my DD earlier today and called her a f b because she didn't want to go in the pool with her - my friends answer to this was you cannot say no to her - if you don't do what she wants she kicks off so we have to let her do what she wants. My friends DH and 2 older kids can't cope with her so they go to the beach and take my 15 yr old with them - I prefer being by the pool so I stay with them and my DD 17. We honestly don't know what to do as our holiday is being ruined by a 7 yr old. She threw my bag in the pool yesterday and I was fuming. We are trying to do stuff without them but they seem to be constantly appearing - they never raise their voice at their DD or tell her to stop as negative language makes her worse. Last night their 15 yr old told my son that she has been permanently excluded from her primary school and she currently has no school place from September - I was aware she has had several exclusions for violence but only short term exclusions but her parents have not mentioned to us about the exclusion. My DH wants us to cut all ties with them until they start parenting their child properly. We are only 3 days in to a 10 day holiday and are tempted to fly home to get away from them. I feel so bad as I am an SEN parent myself but they won't take any advice from us about maybe having a routine and setting boundaries. I so feel for them as they are completely broken by her behaviour but I don't actually know what I can do to help.

Sounds like they give in the easier life. I mean they can’t expect say a stranger to do whatever their dd asks so what do they do then? Because that’s how it should be when she’s asking you, your dd or anyone. She wouldn’t be allowed to just go around slapping people. Sen is not an excuse for violence with no consequences.

I wouldn’t go home but I would look to move accommodation or just stop being at the pool for a couple of days. Go to the beach go out on trips.

They have obviously got themselves backed into a corner of giving in, but that’s just going to of made it 10 x worse and the battle to start saying no needs to be happening.

Without having ever met the child or parents I wouldn’t want to assume they are shitty parents though. I would probably prefer to assume they are fucking knackered, overwhelmed and fallen into habits that look like crap parenting on the outside. They probably do need a better approach to parenting this child but might just not be able to know where to start or have the skills to do so.

I think the OP should look out for what’s best for her own family on this holiday for sure but don’t necessarily think they should cut off friends in the long term.

I have a child exactly how you describe in my family and his parents have simply had to accept that some settings aren’t suitable for him. Their management over the years has been to let him get his own way all the time and it’s just not compatible with having other children. It also invariably means other children get hurt, which as a teenager to hurt small children (and I mean small, he doesn’t discriminate at all) simply isn’t ok.

People should absolutely make allowances for SEN and additional needs but everyone else needs to be safe too. It’s also not fair to the SEN child who is struggling because they’re in a situation which doesn’t suit them.

I don’t know what to suggest you do - if they magically change their parenting she won’t respond. Really they should be the ones to leave. Their child isn’t coping, although it sounds like this is the norm and it isn’t about the change in environment.

If you do broach I would suggest centering it around personal safety of the other children.

I'm amazed you weren't pre-warned.
I'm amazed they chose a joint holiday.
I'm amazed, as an SEN parent yourself, and with the knowledge their older two are (presumably) kind, young adults that you blame them entirely for what you consider to be chosen behaviour.
It could well be ASC with a PDA profile (and yes, I know it's not officially recognised in the DSM-5).
I've been there when one of mine was small. Adaptive parenting (which on the surface did and can look like enabling) was needed and it did feel like defusing a bomb/treading on egg shells. It helped to think of the 6 year old as an emotional 4 year old. Distraction/diversion techniques, multiple choice demands, choosing my battles, keeping activities short and sweet, giving the child an illusion of choice or some control over the activity (mine loved water) and being able to predict triggers/head them off but more importantly, having a Plan B, Plan C etc
Working as a team/divide and conquer (meant I had them a lot whilst others went with their father, similar to what's happening here).
However
I didn't put my caring responsibilities onto someone else or expect them to be around or put up with it. If a lunch among friends didn't work (some did, some didn't) I'd take my child out the situation not subject my friends to it. That happened at least three times (but there were other times that worked well with good planning and a distraction activity or I'd see them separately while their father had them).
I would not accept violence or swearing against anyone else (I did suffer a lot of biting and reverse headbutting when mine was small and I was wrangling) and I'm surprised they haven't cried all over you/expressed feelings of regret, embarrassment or shame.
I think you need to say that you are sorry, you do get it, but your own daughter is your priority. It shouldn't come as any surprise to her. How you divvy up pool time though is the issue. You can't "ban" them from the pool but you could go there when they aren't going to be, having asked in advance.

I agree, it's completely out of order. I would remove myself. You cannot change the family dynamics nor the child though. You can only remove yourself from the situation for now.

I suspect it's not a matter of "parenting their child properly" or not. They're clearly overwhelmed and don't know what to do for the best. You say their two older children have "normal" behaviour etc., so it clearly isn't a case of them simply being feckless and lazy parents.

However, being physically assaulted (slapped), and your belongings thrown into a pool, is not something you and your family have to stick around for. Look for alternative accommodation but continue to be there for your friends. Their parenting struggles are not your business to judge. Just be there to support them as friends.

Interesting g that the other two whilst also being neurodiverse do not behave in a challenging way. I really think this is a case of all kids with asd being very different. Some will be much more challenging and may appear to just be spoilt. I have changed my attitude massively since having my ds. He has almost broken me many many times and I am far from being a push over.

I feel very sorry for you and the other parent. I have a ND child and my friend has a ND child too. We understood years ago that we could not have our children around my friend’s child because his behaviour was too extreme. Unfortunately she gets this literally everywhere she goes so I feel very sorry for her but her child is actually dangerous and she minimises and rationalises his behaviour. She expects a level of understanding from other parents that their children should be okay being harmed by her child because of his conditions. Not even in the autism community has that been a realistic expectation for my friend. People are not okay with their children being badly hurt or harmed. I think you have to prioritise your own children’s safety in your situation. It is so difficult but really what choice do you have.

I think any advice you give is likely to fall on deaf ears. They sound like they need PBS plan and I am surprised it hasn't been arranged by the school before the exclusion. Or maybe it has but the parents are reluctant to follow it... Who knows. But they elected to manage it in a way that spares their own distress which is understandable. Probably not wise in a long run.
The only thing you can do is to physically remove yourself from the situation. Be honest and say you and your children are finding it difficult to cope and you prefer to spend the rest of the trip alone as a family. You may need to give up your preference for the pool as it doesn't sound very restful anyway. You probably don't need to change accommodation if you manage to avoid them throughout the day.

Whatever the reasons for her behaviour/their approach to it, it sounds like a difficult and stressful situation all round.

The fact that her DH and older kids 'cannot cope' with the youngest and go to the beach is very telling. It's obviously very hard for them too.

I would focus on separating activities for the remainder of the holiday. If your DS and DH are happy at the beach, they could carry on?

What about you and your daughter? Could you enjoy the beach some days? Or, is there anything in the area you could go and do?
What are the eating arrangements-you say they don't eat at certain times? Can you and your family eat separately either in the accommodation or out somewhere.

You may have to be a bit direct with the mum so they don't follow you e.g. "me and dd won't be with you tomorrow as we are doing X, so we will catch up with you later'

'We are taking DS and DD out for a meal tomorrow night, so we will catch you after for a drink' etc.

I hope you manage to enjoy the rest of the holiday.

If they haven’t been on holiday with them before it’s possible they haven’t encountered this behaviour before. If the child is out of their comfort zone and over stimulated their behaviour will change. I don’t necessarily think they’re bad parents but they definitely should have anticipated this and warned OP of the possibilities. Having said that it’s not good to allow the child to have their own way because of escalations in behaviour when they say no.

It's interesting that she only has violent outbursts when she can't get her own way or someone says no to her.

My gd is ND, and when she was younger, could be an absolute nightmare in a strage environment or with people she didn't know. Discipling her when she was reacting to confusion and fear - even in the gentlest way - was pointless as her rage and frustration just kept on increasing and her behaviour got worse and worse. We were lucky in that the school was supportive, and she was eventually medicated, she calmed down and was much happier. She recently completed her post-graduate degree, and though her ND can cause her problems, she is holding down a job, has had a good relationship and is doing well. I'm so proud of her.

Your friends are probably dealing with a ND child whose problems are extreme and who is impossible to control sometimes. Medication is usually the answer and can work very well.

But I do appreciate how difficult this must be to deal with. We never took DGD anywhere too far from home when she was young. Changes in routine, changes of scene were real triggers.

wonder how the other mum would react if another child with Sen whacked her kid because her kid wouldn’t do what they wanted.

Bet she wouldn’t just take a well we just have to do what Amber wants. She would be fumming.

Amazing how the parents expect everyone else to suffer and just suck it up to accommodate their child. God forbid that child gets a tell off/is inconvenienced/doesn't get her own way.

I'd either move apartments or go home early.

You could tell the child off, but the parents won't like that so probably won't speak to you again might not be a bad thing

They moved away from our area when their DD was 2 back up to be near my friends family to help with childcare. So we probably now only see them a couple of times a year - hence why we thought the holiday would be a good idea- obviously I had absolutely no idea how bad things were or I would not have gone along with it. My friend never complains or mentions her behaviour and we were completely shocked when we witnessed it for the first time literally an hour into the holiday - when I was talking to her about it a little bit last night - she says the outbursts only ever happen if she doesn't get what she wants and at home she is normally ok because she gets her own way but its harder to give in all the time when not at home. There is alot we are not being told I think as their 15 yr old has told my 15 yr old lots of things that we haven't been told. He has a lock on his door because she tends to wreck all his stuff if he leaves his door open and he is thinking of moving in with his grandmother.

I could t stay another second in their company. Not just because of the out of control child but the ineffective parenting.

'my friends answer to this was you cannot say no to her'

That's all very well for the parents to make poor parenting decisions and live with the consequences but when it's casing problems for others they should step up.

Once the holiday is over you tell her straight and then cut off all contact.

My DH wants us to cut all ties with them until they start parenting their child properly.

^

Dh is on the money

I'd be honest with them and say you're not able to enjoy the holiday you spent a lot of money on while they appease their child's behaviour, whatever the cause. Say you will be keeping yourself apart to try to make it enjoyable and you are sure they will understand. If they don't, too bad.

The DD sounds a lot like my nephew, ineffective parenting to boot.

The parents are responsible, not the ASD child.

For the sake of your sanity and holiday, have a conversation with the parents and simply explain you need space.

You have every right to enjoy your holiday. I hate weak parents and this is exactly it. I don't care how sick she is, if she's allowed to do whatever she pleases then she will never have the opportunity to learn.

@upoutandin87 I agree with others - either move your accommodation or just tell your friend the truth, that their daughter is completely spoiling your holiday and you do not want to spend any time with them for the rest of the holiday. That you're sorry they have such difficulties with their youngest, but you can't cope with it and would never have agreed to go, if you had known her behaviour is this bad

Tell them the "joint" holiday is over and you can't spend any more time around their daughter.

Then make whatever arrangements you have to in order to save whatever is left of your holiday.

Can you start some activities in the day as a family. Explain you want some family time and meet in the evening

If you are prepared to pay for flights home to avoid being around them then it is clearly very bad. Perhaps look into alternative accommodation first as it seems a shame for your children to be denied a holiday, if that is not possible then you may well have to cut your losses. I am guessing you are sharing a villa type holiday rather than in a hotel?