Holiday with another family and behaviour of their ASD child

[upoutandin87]

Currently on holiday with my family and another family (old friends) they have 2 older children same age as my kids and they also now have a 6 yr old. We have holidayed with them before but not since the youngest was born. Youngest is ND (autism and suspected ADHD). My son is 15 and autistic so I know about ASD but there DD seems out of control and we can't cope with it. She swears spits hits and throws furniture if she doesn't get her own way - there is no routine and she basically gets what she wants - she slapped my DD earlier today and called her a f b because she didn't want to go in the pool with her - my friends answer to this was you cannot say no to her - if you don't do what she wants she kicks off so we have to let her do what she wants. My friends DH and 2 older kids can't cope with her so they go to the beach and take my 15 yr old with them - I prefer being by the pool so I stay with them and my DD 17. We honestly don't know what to do as our holiday is being ruined by a 7 yr old. She threw my bag in the pool yesterday and I was fuming. We are trying to do stuff without them but they seem to be constantly appearing - they never raise their voice at their DD or tell her to stop as negative language makes her worse. Last night their 15 yr old told my son that she has been permanently excluded from her primary school and she currently has no school place from September - I was aware she has had several exclusions for violence but only short term exclusions but her parents have not mentioned to us about the exclusion. My DH wants us to cut all ties with them until they start parenting their child properly. We are only 3 days in to a 10 day holiday and are tempted to fly home to get away from them. I feel so bad as I am an SEN parent myself but they won't take any advice from us about maybe having a routine and setting boundaries. I so feel for them as they are completely broken by her behaviour but I don't actually know what I can do to help.

The OP has also said other families have complained to the complex management. Is the complex just expected to suck up bad reviews and losing business because of this?

And it's not even as if the family are having a nice time. Well maybe the Dad who's fucking off to the beach, some perceptive PPs have commented on how they think he probably pushed for spending money on this holiday (rather than stepping up and acting responsibly to improve the family's situation overall) but the older children are clearly distressed, the Mum is upset and not coping and the child is out of control. None of them are having a nice holiday and they're also ruining other people's holidays.This holiday isn't benefiting anyone, least of all the child at the centre of it.

Lots of families of disabled children live with these challenges on a daily basis. This can be what disability is. Don't assume your normal is everyone else's normal.

So families with disabled children shouldn't go on holiday just in case it upsets other holiday makers?

So families with disabled children shouldn't go on holiday just in case it upsets other holiday makers?

No, if they want to have a joint or group holiday with other families they should be clear as to exactly what this will entail so that the other family can make an informed choice before spending large sums of money and using a big chunk of annual leave.

It's a bit of a stretch to say the child's older siblings aren't enjoying their holiday. They seem to be out at the beach a lot from OP's description of events.

So it's have a holiday at any cost, even if it causes huge distress and dysregulation in a child with complex SEND needs? Sounds like she's having a pretty awful time. The family seem head in sand about her needs - they've minimised her exclusion from school, I wonder how much they've rejected what the school's told them. This is not in the best interests of that child, nor her siblings (one of whom wants to leave home).

The fact they didn't tell OP the extent of the problem is because they're ignoring /minimising their child's needs. If the OP drawing a boundary helps them wake up a little (though I'm sure the school tried a lot before exclusion happened) then that's a good thing for that child (regardless of the need for other people to be considered and not just one child). We don't know the situation of all the other people on that complex. There may well be disabled children, children with SEND for whom this child's behaviour will be very distressing. One child doesn't trump everyone else's needs. Sounds as if the family themselves are at least recognising this by their decision to stay off complex during the day.

I don't think the OP has done anything wrong, I think she's been incredibly accommodating and kind in the circumstances (of no previous information allowing informed consent to the holiday).

Let's be realistic. A lot of schools are dreadful at meeting SEN needs. They're just not set up nor funded to do so in this country and no-one official really cares if they don't. The family hasn't necessarily done anything wrong regarding the school.

Do you really think the mum is looking forward to a September with no educational provision for her youngest, with equanimity?

I say that as a mum of a SEN DD who's just finished primary, has an EHCP and whose school were great, but I'm not deluded.

This is true, but I find it difficult to believe the school permanently excluded this child without serious discussions with the family about their child's behaviour, even if their SEN provision is poor.

The parents behaviour on this holiday (not informing OP ahead of time) suggests their heads are firmly in the sand. Hopefully this holiday is a wake up for them. Poor child, parents putting her in situations she can't cope with, no school place from September.

My experience of schools is a lot of them have staff who want to support SEND but just don't have the resources and are not supported by the LA who promise help but never deliver. I'm sure some are rubbish but I think more are well meaning but horrendously under resourced. TA recruitment for example in some areas is incredibly difficult as the pay is so low.

No-one ever seems keen to answer the question 'what if you can't recruit the 1 to 1 the EHCP requires' - what if there is literally no-one willing to do that job in that area for that pay. That's where many schools are. School budgets are already going into deficit and cuts having to be made, there isn't any wriggle room.

I think you're projecting a lot there @Axelotylbottle.

I obviously don't know this family, but most parents try to consider all their children's needs. That they may be failing in these circumstances may be a reflection of how challenging their daughter's disability is, rather than their incompetence or laziness as parents. It is very easy to judge.

I know my own autistic DC finds holidays or days out challenging, but he also loves them and looks forward to them. His behaviour on holiday is quite a bit more difficult to manage than it is at home, but it isn't fair on him or on his siblings to stay home all the time just because it's less stressful for me as a parent.

I have a lot of empathy for someone who's got two (presumably) neurotypical older children who've (presumably) been through the school system successfully. Her youngest is only 6, possibly just finishing year 1. She probably won't have known what questions to ask or what she should have been doing to prevent them managing her out.

I am not being sexist but acknowledging that SEN hassle tends to fall almost entirely on the mother.

"This is true, but I find it difficult to believe the school permanently excluded this child without serious discussions with the family about their child's behaviour, even if their SEN provision is poor."

It really isn't that uncommon for children with SEND to be permanently excluded from primary school. It happened to a child in my extended family. They now attend an ASD school and present with no behaviour issues. (Their behaviour had never been a problem at home either so in some cases the issue is purely with the school.)

I'd say that's actually extremely common, the "baby" of the family indulged and getting away with far more than older siblings.

And if they are not up for listening, and let's face it, who of us actually welcomes someone else saying " don't parent like that, do it my way..." 🤔then withdrawing to preserve your sanity is more than reasonable.

She can support them, it doesn't mean she has to go on holiday with them. The friends seem very selfish to not having given OP a heads up.

I have no idea about exclusion but ime teachers and psychologists have a language code around autism that doesn't make a lot of sense to a parent who's unfamiliar with the condition.

I feel very stupid now, but at first I didn't rsalise that 'some sensory issues' or 'is it just behavioural' were meant to be translated as 'we think you should consider autism'.

So in my experience things aren't made clear even when you do talk to a school. Sometimes you need to be experienced before you get the subtext of what they're saying.

(I feel I should add I am not ND myself and I am very well educated, but stilll...not a clue at first.)

Don’t go on holiday with them again.
sounds like the parents need help with parenting her, they have made a rod for their own back, ND children need strict boundaries.

I wonder what the other kids and the parents from the girls school have experienced and what they would tell us

Yes, you sock it to them, naughty selfish thoughtless carers of a disabled child, for having a holiday. What were they thinking, imagining they could enjoy the same things normal people enjoy. Shame on them.

That is not what posters are saying so stop gaslighting We are saying she AND her DH should have told OP what the holiday could/would entail so OP and her family could have made an informed decision. How the fuck is that saying that the child and her family shouldnt have a holiday. Smacks of emotional blackmail

@Axelotylbottle did suggest the holiday was causing the child huge distress, effectively implying it shouldn't have happened. Another poster dissed the dad for not spending money on therapies instead of a holiday. Not sure who's doing the gaslighting here?

I'm sure they all had an awful time.
Is that what you want to hear?

Whatever happened, it's not relevant to the present thread. OP's much older children aren't attending school with the child in question.

MN Im so exhausted as i havent got a "village"
Also MN Mind your own business I only want a village that agrees with me.

A village that has some experience and a small bit of knowledge about the subject under discussion would be nice 😉

Nobody is disagreeing that it would have been better to have a discussion with OP prior to the holiday - to allow her to make a more informed choice. Nobody. That was clearly a mistake on the parents' part and there is no need to keep reiterating that.

Unfortunately the parents are being judged on much more than that on here. That they are struggling is clear. Lots of us do. Disability affects the whole family and it's usually challenging. Strategies take years to work out and this child is only 6. And they don't always work all the time anyway.

Society isn't very supportive. Some of you are lucky enough not to have experienced that. That's the main difference between you and these parents you are criticising - luck. You just don't realise that.

How are things now @upoutandin87 Did you manage to get some time alone with your friend

Yes, plenty of us who smuggly assumed our children were decently behaved due to our superior parenting, ability to hold boundaries, [insert phrase of your choice], got our comeuppance with a disabled child later down the tracks. Very different scenario. Lots of people seem to assume that every child can be 'normal' if they are parented in the right way. It's like people struggle to understand what having different capacities actually is.

I’m confused. Why can’t they say no to her? That’s not going help the situation. She knows if she screams and shouts loud enough she will get her way.