To be so fucking angry. How many more women and children must die?

[Kianai]

I'd almost become numb to it, with all the news so far this year.

Murder after murder of women and their children. Noone ever seeming to link the common denominator. NAMALT.

This latest one today, I feel like something is beginning to snap inside me. Three babies and a young woman dead, because of a fucking man. Again. And again.

news.sky.com/story/police-launch-murder-investigation-after-woman-and-three-children-die-in-house-fire-in-bradford-13200678

I thought of this thread again this morning when a man gave me the longest, awful stare on the tube. Not physical violence, but it was really menacing. Horrible start to the day.

Generalisations from other species are not conclusive. There are species where male dominance and violence is not the norm. Strangely, one of them is one quite close to us in evolutionary terms, the Bonobos. Suggest you read about their social structure, and see that, no, male violence is not a biological necessity.

Anyway we are an intelligent animal which depends on a social structure where strength and violence are not essential attributes - being able to design an integrated circuit is actually more important. We are quite capable of changing socialisation and social values to at least massively reduce male violence.

Why use bononos when we share 98.8% of our dna with chimps, where the males are very aggressive?

But, yes, I agree we're an intelligent animal, capable of reflection and self awareness, and we have the capacity to reduce violence through socialisation. Given that 99.99% of human males don't kill anybody then you might say we've achieved our goal.

As recently as a few hundred years ago (barely a blink of an eye in human evolutionary terms) people were duelling to the death and engaging in widespread clan warfare and ransacking of rival villages etc.

I am not sure what point you think that proves.
Two men have been charged after a family was killed proves that men may be responsible for these attacks. I don't think anyone argued otherwise.
However, it does not prove that all men are capable of this and women must be very, very fearful, which is what some are claiming here.

That beautiful family 😭😭😭

@Katypp but how do we know the difference between which are capable which aren't justly by looking or speaking to them ?

Well we share a very similar percentage with bonobos. And the point is not that we have to be like one more than the other; the point is that it is biologically plausible that we could be like either. And the important issue is not really how many men are killers, but the rather larger percentage who are entitled, violent or aggressive. Let us not be complacent about progress we have already made.

No worries lovey.

My apologies. I've heard anti-choicers say that abortion is domestic violence and thought that was the point you were making.

That's the crux of the issue, yeah. Even about men you think you know well can turn out to be wife abusers or rapists.

Absolutely we shouldn't tolerate toxic/violent/abusive behaviour. But I'm sceptical how much of the progress we've seen has really been down to feminists as opposed to society generally becoming more enlightened/less violent in general.

For example, the vote for women was primarily driven by our contribution to the war efforts and the fact that other countries had already granted women the vote quite separately. I'm not convinced it was down to the suffragettes blinding innocent postal workers and attempting to set bombs off in theatres and churches (how many innocent women and children might this have killed!). They weren't really that far off Al Queada IMO.

Fact is, most of our progress has come from working with men rather than from feminist separatism and the feminists on here spouting generalisations about men aren't the same feminists that fought for the vote. The majority of women don't agree with them statistically (even in places like Sweden less than half of women identify as feminists) and I'd not imagine they're really inspiring the average man to want to help their cause.

The feminists of today seem obsessed with minor nonsense like men sitting with their legs too far apart on the train and think it's the ultimate act of empowerment to walk down the street barging into people. A lot of it just seems bonkers to me tbh.

Ugh. Sorry that happened to you. Infuriatingly, it's commonplace. I know a woman who was either groped or something vile was said to her nearly every time.

It just seems at odds to me to get behind the wheel of a car every day yet be terrified of the miniscule chance of being murdered. It's just not logical thinking.

So you want a battle of the links, is that it? 😆

Once again, the point I'm making is that you are leaving out the context of why these assaults happen. Without that context these statistics are pretty much worthless for proving a point.
You are using these raw statistics to make the completely bogus claim that women are "more violent."

Yet you have said women are more violent than men and posted a bunch of links you claim prove it.
Pick a lane. Which is it?

Your ideas about what feminists think, believe and promote live in your head and nowhere else.

It's also a perfectly valid point that we can't tell which men we can trust, so you can stop being so snide and making fun of it. It's distressing for a lot of women that you never know which man could turn out to be violent. How is anyone supposed to live in a world like that, where you know that any member of half the population could be dangerous? What part of that don't you get?

You're talking about 1700 studies as if they were one. The conclusion was that women are more violent. Take it up with the author.

OTOH, men tend to cause more serious injury which is unsurprising given their strength.

Please shitcan the Mr. Spock impersonation. Your alleged logic is unsound because you have made a false comparison. When driving, you have some control. Half the equation is your driving, so that's half of the risk managed at least. You can't control other drivers, but you can practice defensive driving when they fuck up. Having some control brings confidence.
However, you have no control of whether or not some sicko decides to rape and kill you. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Yet you also repeatedly say men are more violent because testosterone. Wtf.
Sorry, but you're just not making sense. You're all over the place.

But the fact is that most of us recognise that, whilst men are more violent, the majority are OK, with a sliding spectrum whereby some might make laddish jokes etc but wouldn't dare do it in front of their wives, whilst others are unrepentant arseholes/incels.

The majority of women don't like toxic modern feminism. The studies are out there. Loads of them. Most women believe in 'equality' but dont identify as feminists, citing such issues as 'toxic attitudes towards men' and 'bitchiness'.

I'm not making it up.

Fewer than one in five young women would call themselves a feminist, polling in the UK and US suggests. (Links to both studies within).

(From the article link to study from feminist group Fawcett Society) Only one in twenty (4%) people in the UK said they don’t know what feminism stands for. Only 7% self-identify as feminist. People who identify as feminist are more likely to think gender can be a range of identities – 68% of feminists think gender is fluid compared to the 44% national average. The word ‘feminism’ triggered various responses – negatives such as ‘overbearing’ were provided by one in four (26%) while positive connotations such as ‘strength’ were given by one in five (22%).

A 2018 YouGov poll found that 34% of women in the UK said "yes" when asked whether they were a feminist, up from 27% in 2013.

It's a similar picture in Europe, with fewer than half of men and women polled in five countries agreeing they were a feminist. This ranged from 8% of respondents in Germany, to 40% in Sweden.

However, people do not appear to reject the term feminism because they are against gender equality or believe it has been achieved.

The same study found that eight out of 10 people said men and women should be treated equally in every way, with many agreeing sexism is still an issue.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47006912.amp

So, if people are rejecting feminism whilst simultaneously believing in equality, what don't they like about modern feminism? Hmm.... 🤔

Argumentum ad populum- the fallacy that a something (a belief, a practice, etcetera) can be justified because a lot of people believe it, do it, say it, etcetera.

Example; a lot of people believe in God. Is that proof God exists?

Example; A lot of people don't want to identify as feminists. Is that proof feminism is "toxic?"

This is your idea of logic?

But usually there is a reason. And I don't believe it's internalised misogyny lol.

I'm not against free speech in the slightest. I've no problem with feminists indulging in the group fantasy that they're the last bastion of defence protecting us all from misogygeddon, or proclaiming themselves Spartacus to one another.

What gets me is when modern feminists try and speak on behalf of 'women' - a group that in aggregate doesn't identify with them. It's like the Tories speaking on behalf of the general public or Andrew Tate on behalf of the average man.

I'd love to find a solution to male violence but becoming a female incel isn't it.

Anyway, I've said my bit and I don't think this is going anywhere, so I'm out. I won't be returning to read the inevitable snarky replies.

If men were being killed by women in these numbers there’d be a national outcry and government would take notice

I'm in my late 50s and have campaigned for equality in the workplace in the past. From an early age, I was infuriated that my dad did nothing around the house as he was a man and let him know about it. Growing up (and still now), I regularly pull people on outdated views and assumptions.
I believe passionately in equality, but I have nothing in common with the feminists on this board, whose only aim is to create division between the sexes and place women back in the role of helpless victims at the hands of evil men.
When I read some of the frankly silly posts on here, I wonder why these women are still looking for a fight and conclude that they must enjoy the commeraderie and self-righteous indignation being in such a tribe gives them.
I fought for equality and I don't recognise what we have now in the name of feminism.