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To be so fucking angry. How many more women and children must die?

778 replies

Kianai · 21/08/2024 15:40

I'd almost become numb to it, with all the news so far this year.

Murder after murder of women and their children. Noone ever seeming to link the common denominator. NAMALT.

This latest one today, I feel like something is beginning to snap inside me. Three babies and a young woman dead, because of a fucking man. Again. And again.

news.sky.com/story/police-launch-murder-investigation-after-woman-and-three-children-die-in-house-fire-in-bradford-13200678

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
SeaStory · 22/08/2024 15:28

Hateam · 22/08/2024 08:15

How on earth do you know that the lovely women in your workplace or friends are not violent?

As has been pointed out, nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors. Women committing acts of DV is much more common than is thought especially among lesbian couples.

61% of bisexual women and 44% of lesbian women surveyed in 2013 reported some type of intimate partner violence (IPV) compared to 35% of straight women.

https://www.standffov.org/tdvam/abuse-in-lesbian-relationships/

Food for thought for those posters who hope their daughters become lesbians.

Years ago when this research first came out there was a breakdown of how the information was collected, I haven’t been able to find this for ages.

Anyway, if I recall correctly the way it was collected held into account DV from previous relationships, and many of those were hetero, and it was the man carrying out the DV.

If anyone has this information I’d love to reread it.

The upshot was though that the research wasn’t as reliable as MRAs like to think it was.

Edited to add: that’s not to say that women can’t be abusive and commit DV, of course they can, and it would be naive to state otherwise. However on scrutiny this research wasn’t as straightforward as it was presented.

XChrome · 22/08/2024 15:28

Katypp · 22/08/2024 15:17

Again, there's no need for such aggression.
If you can point me to a reasonable debate where the poster is not swearing and abusing those who don't go along with the rhetoric, I will gladly debate.
I have no idea what you mean about pouring straw into ears by the way - care to explain?

A strawman argument is when you argue against something that was not said.
What "aggression" are you talking about? What "abuse?" You seem extremely thin-skinned.
Swearing isn't aggression. Women are not delicate flowers collapsing onto fainting couches over "naughty" words. It's 2024.

Edited to add; you were the aggressive one, name-calling another poster as "shouty and ignorant."
Take your own advice and don't be so hypocritical.

diffrentshadeofblack · 22/08/2024 15:30

Woman are always blamed for male violence, they have their children removed from them because their husbands attack them often the child's father and then the court gives the fathers custody because the mother failed to protect them from their father.
This world is bonkers.

Hateam · 22/08/2024 15:30

Katypp · 22/08/2024 15:19

And even if we’re lucky enough to make it through the day without being physically assaulted

Actually seriously? Where on earth do you hang out?

It's comments like this that make women sound ridiculous.

There are enough hard and fast provable facts about VAWG to prove any sensible argument. But when women feel the need to make stuff up, people will just inwardly roll their eyes and just ignore them.

I do not believe that getting through the day without being physically attacked by men is a rare event for the majority of women.

Honourthyname7 · 22/08/2024 15:35

BiscuityBoyle · 22/08/2024 07:24

I don’t agree. Thinking of all the men I know, family, friends and work colleagues I didn’t know a single one who is violent. Not a one. Perhaps I’m lucky. Perhaps I don’t come from a family with that kind of background, perhaps I pick my friends well, perhaps it’s that my workplace is the kind that attracts a certain kind of man.

So based on the men I know violent ones are the outliers. I’m not saying that a lot of men are violent but in my experience it’s not the majority.

Abuse isn’t just about violence. No abuser advertisers it on their forehead like a badge of honour, my bet is you’ve known loads of abusers.

SeaStory · 22/08/2024 15:38

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 08:30

Of course it would.

How has anything been changed in history?

Things are only ever changed when the oppressed start to stand up against their oppressors and insist on change.

Women never seem to bloody do anything! They just sit and let it happen

Seriously?
Read up on feminist history!
Women just sit and let it happen? What a load of bollocks!

This particular issue is difficult because men enjoy their privilege and resist change. Any change for the better will likely affect their porn use, their attitudes to women on the whole, their position in society. It could change but I suspect it would take women striking (from wife work, from sex, from all the mental load stuff that’s predominantly done by women) before men take us seriously.

Katypp · 22/08/2024 15:42

What a silly and childish response. I have at no point suggested women are delicate flowers collapsing at 'naughty words'. I guess you could call that a strawman argument?
So aggression and abuse?
For example:
So you can fuck right off with your ‘men are the real victims here’ because it’s absolute bollocks. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself. sounds pretty aggressive to me, as does There is no “kind of family background” abusers come from or kind of workplace they’re attracted to. Please educate yourself. Your ignorance is astounding.
But I imagine you would say these posters are so right, their stance is justified.
Whevs. There is no point in arguing as you are not interested. Stick to your echo chamber.

cupcaske123 · 22/08/2024 15:45

Katypp · 22/08/2024 15:42

What a silly and childish response. I have at no point suggested women are delicate flowers collapsing at 'naughty words'. I guess you could call that a strawman argument?
So aggression and abuse?
For example:
So you can fuck right off with your ‘men are the real victims here’ because it’s absolute bollocks. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself. sounds pretty aggressive to me, as does There is no “kind of family background” abusers come from or kind of workplace they’re attracted to. Please educate yourself. Your ignorance is astounding.
But I imagine you would say these posters are so right, their stance is justified.
Whevs. There is no point in arguing as you are not interested. Stick to your echo chamber.

What's your argument?

Katypp · 22/08/2024 15:47

Hateam · 22/08/2024 15:30

It's comments like this that make women sound ridiculous.

There are enough hard and fast provable facts about VAWG to prove any sensible argument. But when women feel the need to make stuff up, people will just inwardly roll their eyes and just ignore them.

I do not believe that getting through the day without being physically attacked by men is a rare event for the majority of women.

To be honest, I think your statement that all women start their day expecting to be attacked by men is made-up and ridiculous.
I also believe your argument is not sensible ie provable but there seems to be plenty on here only to willing to lap it up.

Hateam · 22/08/2024 15:49

Not sure what you mean by my 'statement that all women start their day expecting to be attacked by men is made-up and ridiculous.'

Edit. I was referring back yo whothefuckdoesthat's comment I might not have made that clear.* *

XChrome · 22/08/2024 15:53

Katypp · 22/08/2024 15:42

What a silly and childish response. I have at no point suggested women are delicate flowers collapsing at 'naughty words'. I guess you could call that a strawman argument?
So aggression and abuse?
For example:
So you can fuck right off with your ‘men are the real victims here’ because it’s absolute bollocks. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself. sounds pretty aggressive to me, as does There is no “kind of family background” abusers come from or kind of workplace they’re attracted to. Please educate yourself. Your ignorance is astounding.
But I imagine you would say these posters are so right, their stance is justified.
Whevs. There is no point in arguing as you are not interested. Stick to your echo chamber.

There you go, insulting me when I was polite to you. Tsk. Such a hypocrite.

I was talking about your post to me, in which you chastised me for alleged aggression in the first line.
Was that line not meant for me? If not, why post it to me?

Look if you are going to complain about other women swearing in 2024, it makes you look like you have Victorian notions of "ladylike" behaviour. That was my point, not that you had said those things. Are you unable to process sarcasm?
Your general tone is one of moral outrage at the way others comport themselves when you are certainly no better behaved yourself. You just do it without swear words and think you can sneak your hostility in that way. You aren't fooling anybody.

There's no point in arguing, but that's because you couldn't argue your way out of a paper sack.

Whothefuckdoesthat · 22/08/2024 16:10

Katypp · 22/08/2024 14:55

Really, is there any need to be so rude and aggressive?
You might think you sound passionate and driven whereas I (and others on the sidelines I suspect) think you sound shouty, ignorant and unable to even consider another viewpoint.
We get your point. All men are violent monsters, all women are innocent victims. Women never kill unless a man made them do it.
Of course, real life is a lit more nuanced than your shortcut version.

Yes, I think there was a need to be rude. The aggression wasn’t intentional but I think it goes well with the general theme.

I don’t think I sound passionate or driven at all. I wasn’t going for passionate or driven. I was going for really pissed off. More to the point, why on earth would you think anyone would care what you thought of them? Am I supposed to sit down and stop swearing now because you’ve taken offence on behalf of your menfolk?

And you’ve got a brass neck, reducing what I said to ‘all men are monsters’ and then telling me I’m unable to consider any other viewpoints 😂

Whothefuckdoesthat · 22/08/2024 16:17

Hateam · 22/08/2024 15:30

It's comments like this that make women sound ridiculous.

There are enough hard and fast provable facts about VAWG to prove any sensible argument. But when women feel the need to make stuff up, people will just inwardly roll their eyes and just ignore them.

I do not believe that getting through the day without being physically attacked by men is a rare event for the majority of women.

Dozens of words there and you’ve taken exception to the one phrase that could possibly have been misinterpreted. Clearly I didn’t mean that it was rare for women to get through the day without experiencing violence. I didn’t think I’d need to clarify that point to anyone. My mistake.

Words · 22/08/2024 16:27

If the man involved in this awful incident survives, I can assure everyone there will be more publicity as it goes to trial or sentencing, if he pleads.

The issue is that there is for good reason, a hiatus in reporting between charge and further proceedings.

Drugs, especially steroids, are playing an increasingly prominent part in these DV cases I suspect.

Whothefuckdoesthat · 22/08/2024 16:31

Katypp · 22/08/2024 15:19

And even if we’re lucky enough to make it through the day without being physically assaulted

Actually seriously? Where on earth do you hang out?

Katy, I’m beginning to think that you’re either on a wind up or that my swearing has upset your equilibrium so much that you’re left incapable of rational thought.

Male violence isn’t restricted to dodgy pubs and rough estates. It’s in women’s workplaces (see the customer service threads where a woman’s colleagues were walking her out of the building because a man threatened to wait outside her building and attack her, or the woman who had a man wish that she would be gang raped). It’s in women’s homes (nip over to the relationships board, there’s usually at least one woman in fear on there). It’s on our daily commute (do you remember the woman who was pushed into the road by a male jogger, narrowly avoiding being hit by a bus?).

Do you need me to give you any more examples? Or are you understanding the point I was trying to make now?

TriesNotToBeCynical · 22/08/2024 17:09

If we are going to change mail behaviour, in the short term we need changes in the law. Not particularly more prison, but more intrusive law, more available law, and better enforced law. For instance, if violent men were refused unsupervised access to their children - ok against current dogma to deprive the kid of a daddy - but also deprive the father of a reward for their behaviour and deprive the child of a harmful role model. Many more examples of more intrusive, available and enforced law spring to mind - the ourstreetsnow campaign for instance.

In the medium term we need to change how we bring up boys (and probably girls). Any teacher who says we have to learn to "stand up for ourselves" or permits any bullying to be sacked? Make boys and girls do the same things - actually they'll both like it? If I say they should dress the same you'll probably think I'm mad, but still.

Anyone actually doing research on how to achieve all this? I've only sketched a few thoughts off the top of my head.

Honourthyname7 · 22/08/2024 17:18

I recently got a load of nasty verbal from some teen school boy's, I think they thought I was younger than I was and when they realised I was a middle aged woman they turned from judging me in a sexual way to de-humanising me in another.
I remember feeling so upset and like women aren’t even safe from harm on the streets from boys now as-well (since Andrew Tate)

I also remember thinking I bet their mothers think they’re lovely boys.

This is how misogyny starts, it’s not all about violence. It’s about making women/girls feel de-humanised, it’s about making them question themselves when they are just going about their normal day.

Its the insidious nature of men/boys entitlement to make women/girls feel less than or just reduced to a body for them to do/say what they will.

I dread to think how those boys are treating girls their own age. And getting away with it.

When will it end.

HelloMiss · 22/08/2024 17:19

Ah shame!

Was a decent thread (for once) until @Whothefuckdoesthat derailed it!

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 17:20

SeaStory · 22/08/2024 15:38

Seriously?
Read up on feminist history!
Women just sit and let it happen? What a load of bollocks!

This particular issue is difficult because men enjoy their privilege and resist change. Any change for the better will likely affect their porn use, their attitudes to women on the whole, their position in society. It could change but I suspect it would take women striking (from wife work, from sex, from all the mental load stuff that’s predominantly done by women) before men take us seriously.

You misread me.

I didn't say that women haven't done anything in history to improve womens rightd.

I said that women aren't doing much NOW to improve women's rights.

What exactly are women doing on a large scale in the UK now to improve womens rights?

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 17:23

I'm of the opinion that it would be more useful instead of sitting round saying men are violent perpetrators.

It would be more useful for women to start to come together to activate change.

I would love to get a nationwide group set up. Where we could have regional groups belonging to the national network. In the groups women could focus on how to reduce sexual assault of women, and how to protect women more in society and how to get more respect for women everywhere.

NPET · 22/08/2024 17:38

Yes I'm 20 and I, along with many other young women I know, am scared.
It SHOULDN'T be like this - yes I know easy to say, difficult to sort out. But several of us at college are now trying to ensure that we know where we all are all the time!
It's mad that we should have to do this. We live on the outskirts of London (on commuting rail lines) and we've not been scared before, not even using public transport at night (most of my trains are very busy late into the evening).
Locally I've always relied on my noisy (ancient) VW Polo to get me around. It's something of a joke. Fortunately I can use my next door neighbour(female)'s cars so not necessarily a problem. [As a totally irrelevant aside, why is reverse gear in a different position in each, and why does it ...? sorry]
OK I'm getting off the point, trying to inject some less scary detail.
But, seriously, it is BL➿DY HORRIBLE and women of my age need to be on the streets campaigning.

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 17:41

NPET · 22/08/2024 17:38

Yes I'm 20 and I, along with many other young women I know, am scared.
It SHOULDN'T be like this - yes I know easy to say, difficult to sort out. But several of us at college are now trying to ensure that we know where we all are all the time!
It's mad that we should have to do this. We live on the outskirts of London (on commuting rail lines) and we've not been scared before, not even using public transport at night (most of my trains are very busy late into the evening).
Locally I've always relied on my noisy (ancient) VW Polo to get me around. It's something of a joke. Fortunately I can use my next door neighbour(female)'s cars so not necessarily a problem. [As a totally irrelevant aside, why is reverse gear in a different position in each, and why does it ...? sorry]
OK I'm getting off the point, trying to inject some less scary detail.
But, seriously, it is BL➿DY HORRIBLE and women of my age need to be on the streets campaigning.

.

parkrun500club · 22/08/2024 17:49

Katypp · 22/08/2024 15:19

And even if we’re lucky enough to make it through the day without being physically assaulted

Actually seriously? Where on earth do you hang out?

Have you read Laura Bates's book? She was sexually harassed more in one morning than I have been in my entire life!

Exaggeration doesn't help the cause.

But can we please stop the NAMALT and "women kill people too" nonsense, take that to another thread.

Women can be nasty.

But in the same way that men are worried women will laugh at them, while women are worried men will kill/rape them, I might be worried that a woman will say something nasty to me but I am not worried that they will kill or rape me. Can we please stay on topic.

Men killing wives and partners and kids and the poor sister who happened to be in the way (crossbow).

Men killing young girls having fun at a dance workshop.

Policemen killing women they happen to spot on the street.

Not women. Men.

SparklyJadeFawn · 22/08/2024 17:52

parkrun500club · 22/08/2024 17:49

Have you read Laura Bates's book? She was sexually harassed more in one morning than I have been in my entire life!

Exaggeration doesn't help the cause.

But can we please stop the NAMALT and "women kill people too" nonsense, take that to another thread.

Women can be nasty.

But in the same way that men are worried women will laugh at them, while women are worried men will kill/rape them, I might be worried that a woman will say something nasty to me but I am not worried that they will kill or rape me. Can we please stay on topic.

Men killing wives and partners and kids and the poor sister who happened to be in the way (crossbow).

Men killing young girls having fun at a dance workshop.

Policemen killing women they happen to spot on the street.

Not women. Men.

I'm not scared of men when I go out.

parkrun500club · 22/08/2024 17:56

I'm not scared of men when I go out

Not generally, no. I am also older now though so not of interest to most men. That wouldn't stop a man who just hates women deciding to have a go at me though.