Random stranger sat on my table at a dinner and tribute act show

[Prontehpronto]

Hi, I went to a dinner and ABBA tribute act tonight on my own (family out of town and no one else to go with). I was having a lovely time, a stranger asked if he could take the extra chair,I said yes cos I thought he was going to pick it up and take it, he proceeded to sit down! He asked why I was on my own,I said hubby was away and I thought I'd enjoy a show, he started telling me about his divorce etc, he was older, 62, seemed not weird and just overly friendly father like figure, but when the shoe carried on he didn't move!!! I said aren't your friends going to miss you, he was like its fine!! I ignored him and turned away, I'm pissed cos he didn't go away and plus I had paid extra for VIP tickets at a table at the front. His friend cane to give him a drink, I thought bloody hell no way,told him not to put the drink down on my table and can you go back with your friends. Bloody ruined my night abit, why did he do that, and how should I have handled it. He prob was harmless but he shouldn't have approached a lone female I don't think and then not gone away!!!

Because by approaching them, the dangerous men see it as you having given them an "in". Ask women why they don't approach, or even give platonic compliments to, men. Most of us have had the experience of trying to be nice and friendly and then being aggressively pursued because of it. You don't know if you're actually interested in anything more with someone until you've had at least a decent conversation, but it's common for them to be like "She spoke to me/smiled at me! She definitely wants me!" and then it starts. This isn't conjecture, it's reality.

Over 60 is not the ancient mariner. Many, many men of his generation use online dating.

Umm... with extreme difficulty? If these men have no social life, no friends, and presumably very limited social skills either because of or leading to being in that situation, how can they expect to enter into a healthy romantic relationship? They sound like the LAST people who should be approaching random strangers, as having little engagement with people doesn't bode well for their ability to read social cues. Developing their people skills would help them in all sorts of ways. Going out and hunting for a random woman is not a realistic plan.

@rookiemere Do young people not chat each other up at nightclubs and such like any more then?

People have never met at nightclubs. It is impossible to speak to other people in places where the music is too loud to shout over.

Although I do think one of the saddest things about increased wfh is many people met their life partners that way, often working together and developing a mutual respect for each other before getting together romantically.

Dear god, trying to meet a romantic partner in the place you work is, and always has been, a horrendous idea. WFH is irrelevant- the overwhelming majority of people I think would not romantically pursue a colleague just on principle.

My DH and I went for a 3 Michelin star meal last year. There was a woman on her own at the table next to us, happily working her way through the tasting menu while listening to something on your phone. DH says “poor thing, she must be lonely, should we invite her to join us” and all I could think was “are you mad? That woman is living the dream! Having a fantastic experience, exactly as she likes, with no one to bother her” He just did not get it, to him you cannot enjoy yourself on your own, some people are like that.

But in this case he was either hitting on you or trying to get himself a free upgrade and you were within your rights to tell him to sod off.

You think culture tells men to keep persisting even when woman have just TOLD them they are married?

No. Thats idiotic.

@HolidayAtNight Because by approaching them, the dangerous men see it as you having given them an "in".

The first thing to understand is that dangerous men are a tiny minority of men. The second thing is that dangerous men are far, far more likely to approach women and try to initiate contact with them than normal men.

This means that if you wait to be approached, you are more likely to find yourself talking to a scumbag, or an aggressive man, or a dangerous man. If you approach men instead, the probability of meeting someone normal is far higher.

Umm... with extreme difficulty? If these men have no social life, no friends, and presumably very limited social skills either because of or leading to being in that situation, how can they expect to enter into a healthy romantic relationship?

Well I would strongly disagree that people who have few, or no friends, have "limited social skills." Some people are perfectly normal and pleasant, but find themselves with no friends because of life circumstances. Financial difficulty, illness, family problems, circumstances around their job, etc.

@velvetcoat You think culture tells men to keep persisting even when woman have just TOLD them they are married?

Well given the number of "OW" threads, and threads about men and women cheating, that I see on mumsnet, it should be self-evident that society does indeed encourage men to pursue women regardless of whether or not they are married.

@shuggles Do not presume to tell women how to risk assess men.

I feel like my point isn't getting through here. I neither want to approach nor be approached. When single, I use online dating to meet men. These days especially, I have an assumption that a man who breaks the social rules to chat up a total stranger is more likely to be a wrong 'un precisely because he is going against the prevailing culture. The only way I could see that approach working would be more like... getting to know someone who regularly attends similar events to you, and eventually chatting to them ABOUT the art/theatre/whatever before getting to know each other better (this is how my mum met her partner). Not just 0-100 with a complete randomer who has been chosen purely on the basis of her looks, because her personality is at that point a total unknown.

Someone with good social skills, friends or not, would know that cold approaching random women is unlikely to be a good strategy to find a romantic partner. Women aren't going to risk their safety by approaching men to make it easier for men to find dates.

Nope. A few posts on MN does not indicate "culture" as a whole. Stop justifying pervy old men. Besides, OP told him she was fine and indicated clearly she wanted to be alone as well as telling him she was married.

If you think thats a green light to continue harrassing women you need to be careful because you'll end up in trouble one of these days....

@HolidayAtNight It sounds like we agree on many points anyway.

Women aren't going to risk their safety by approaching men to make it easier for men to find dates.

Again, how do you know that's more risky?

When single, I use online dating to meet men.

With online dating, how often do you send the first message, push for a meeting, and arrange the date?

I already explained why it's more risky. That aside, the way many men treat women who they think are unattractive, or easy, or a sure thing, makes it very unappealing to approach random guys. Furthermore, as men are more likely to say yes to any given woman than vice versa (based on experience, data on swiping trends on online dating, and a study on responses to random propositioning), you run the risk of not knowing whether they actually like you for you (which is always one of the main issues, whether they truly see you as a whole person and not a sidekick/part of their story/fantasy object to project ideas onto) or just said yes because you were there and making it clear you were interested.

That depends - when I used Bumble, for example, all the time because that's how the app is set up. I have no problem with asking a man out if I'm interested - but that comes AFTER we've been chatting for a while and I've got some idea of what he's like (which may still be wrong, but is more likely to bear some semblance to reality compared to chatting up Mr Random by sitting at his table at the ABBA tribute concert).

@HolidayAtNight I already explained why it's more risky. That aside, the way many men treat women who they think are unattractive, or easy, or a sure thing, makes it very unappealing to approach random guys.

And yet, many men approach women who think they are unattractive, or "easy," or a "sure thing" anyway.

you run the risk of not knowing whether they actually like you for you

I'm confused. Is that not the whole point of dating, that you go on a few dates then decide whether or not you like the other person? So men are likely to say yes initially, but then they might change their mind after a few dates right?

Is that not the whole point? No person is ever going to know if they like someone before dating.

Don't be daft. He was trying his luck. I'm long enough in the tooth to know men's tactics. He was there with a group of his own friends and therefore was not lonely or desperate for company. This wasn't a brief, friendly/polite exhange with the OP whilst buying drinks at the bar. The man plonked himself firmly down at the table of a woman 20 years his junior in an area he hadn't even paid for the privilege to be in. There was a single bloke on the table next to the OP so why then didn't he choose to sit there and exercise such all important social interaction with him? What part of this aren't you getting.

Nobody has said that. Get a grip yourself.

Exactly. On point.

@shuggles you mentioned upthread that you had approached women, that it had not gone well and that you hated yourself for doing it. Presume that you are a man then which may account for why you are not understanding the woman's perspective on this? I'm afraid a lot of men - even intelligent ones including family & friends - seem unable to understand why this is such an issue for women, based as it is on concerns about their own personal safety. Sometimes when I discuss it with them I see them getting defensive about it and even detect a glimmer of anger. And these are men I love and am close to.

You seem really resentful of the fact that men are socially pressured to approach women, and that women somehow owe it to men to take the pressure off them by doing the approaching themselves. To my cynical self: just one more example of male entitlement and irrational anger at women I'm afraid.

Again, bitter experience talking; once upon a time when I was really young I was open and friendly and would talk to anyone. Countless experiences of male persistence turning to disrespect, resentment, anger and aggression have long knocked (occasionally, literally knocked) me out of that.

Btw there is nothing wrong with people getting together at work and they do it all the time, COVID made this difficult but most workplaces are at least part time office based. As long as appropriate rules are followed - keep the relationship outside the workplace, don't hit on subordinates etc - that is absolutely fine. Online dating is there too and the benefit of that is that the women can set parameters around that to keep herself safe. So lots of options for people with sensitivity, good social skills and respect for others.

@Livingtothefull are you young or have you lived a sheltered life? In pubs and bars of basically any time pre 2000ish, men approached women as that is how many people found a mate. We weren't offended as that is how it was. Not everyone had a friend of a friend or workmates to "set you up". But for some reason women these days seem disgusted that a man would ever speak to them.

Warmfeet · Today 00:49its quite an odd thing to go to on your own though, so probably thought you'd been stood up and felt sorry for you.

Did you reach adulthood pre WWII ? And have been stuck in a time - warp ever since?

At a standing concert in London for a somewhat obscure, but with somewhat cult following, singer songwriter I was on my own. During the interval between the support act and the main act a man standing next to me, also on his own, started a conversation about the musician. We discussed the support act and the main act's new album. At no point did he ask me why I was on my own, or could he keep me company or buy me a drink. Conversation ended when main act started.

Perfectly pleasant conversation. And completely different from OP's experience.

Stop exaggerating.

This was a concert. Why would random 60 plus bloke think a 40 year old woman wants to be bothered being chatted up by him.

That's a bit naive. Lots of men will sleep with women they don't actually like as people. There are fundamental differences in assessing the opposite sex for men and women. How much we have to try to mitigate the risk to our physical safety is the obvious difference, but figuring out whether you're really seen as a full person rather than an object is a really hard one to explain to men. Growing up under the male gaze sucks. I've seen men argue with women that women don't have genuine inner lives, as an extreme example.

Yeah, that's the point - if they will already approach the women they think those things about, how much worse will they be to ones who have "confirmed" it by approaching them in public?

@Livingtothefull you mentioned upthread that you had approached women, that it had not gone well and that you hated yourself for doing it. Presume that you are a man then which may account for why you are not understanding the woman's perspective on this?

I don't agree that I don't understand women's perspectives. I have listened to women's perspectives on being approached by men. I fully understand and accept that women do not like to be approached in public places, in bars, or in nightclubs, and it is not something that I would ever do again (I would say a majority of men do continue to approach women, even though it is clearly not socially acceptable).

The issue though is that there is no evidence to suggest that women approaching men is more dangerous or hazardous than the reverse scenario. Because quite clearly, women not approaching men has not stopped a minority of men from choosing to harm women anyway.

You seem really resentful of the fact that men are socially pressured to approach women, and that women somehow owe it to men to take the pressure off them by doing the approaching themselves.

You are looking at this the wrong way. It's not about one gender having to "do work" that the other gender has to do. I am saying that if men didn't have to approach women, then there would be more harmony between the genders, which would be a good thing.

Btw there is nothing wrong with people getting together at work and they do it all the time

Absolutely not. First of all, there is the risk of harming working relationships if one person reads the situation wrongly. Second, productivity and output will be harmed if employees are thinking about having relationships with each other rather than working. Third, if the relationship doesn't work out, then again, working relationships are harmed.

Workplace relationships are a completely bonkers idea and I'm not sure where you are getting this strange idea from that it's a positive thing.

@HolidayAtNight That's a bit naive. Lots of men will sleep with women they don't actually like as people.

Sure. So then after dating, or potentially having sex 6 months or a year down the line, if the man is not interested, then he will break off the relationship. So you dated a man, and you discovered the man is not interested. So you haven't lost anything and you can try dating a different man instead. I don't understand what the issue is.

It's sad that we need clear responses to each and every interaction, that we never wanted in the first place.

There are times and places to have conversations with others, like as alluded to a speed dating or just plain ordinary dating event. Plus other places and times.

I detest the idea that I'm supposed to entertain a full grown adult in these situations. It's not my unpaid job to listen to you talk about anything, I'm not your bloody therapist. Stop being cheap and go find and pay a therapist to talk to.

I was once phoned by a friends husband, he asked me to invite his wife over to mine, he actually said "so you can have a womens natter" I was fucking livid. I gave him both barrels. He never asked me again and I never had his wife over again. Fuck that, I'm not an adult babysitting service.

What?! Is this serious? You think investing emotionally in a relationship and then finding out they never liked you that much but were willing to sleep with you and put up with you for a while is no big deal? This post is so out of touch with the reality of human experience that I genuinely don't know what to say.

@rookiemere our priest said a few weeks ago that 95% of the couples he marries now have met online

@shuggles understand that you have a different perspective but you aren't really getting the point of my original post. I deliberately booked a VIP table at the front as I thought this would deter any chancers, it didn't. I deliberately dressed in wide trousers and a high blouse as to not give off any 'come at me vibes'. I think most men are fully capable of understanding when it is appropriate to approach a woman or not, a woman on her own at a dinner and entertainment event isn't that time (it wasnt billed as a singles event...)It made me feel on edge, as I was leaving I was mindful of where this man was. It wasn't that he engaged in quick polite conversation then left, he sat down and outstayed his welcome, he told me very personal things such as why he was divorced, I turned away once the music carried on and still he stayed. To compound that his equally older friend thought it was ok to bring his drink over as though he was settled for the night instead of telling his friend to come back to their area which was at the back. Regardless of whether you understand, can empathise, or think my reaction is disproportionate, I feel silly, annoyed, had a night which cost me £170 tarnished and it has definitely put me off going out by myself again. I would think about how you would feel if your daughter, sister, female friend, etc came home to you and told you a similar story or worse as some of the other posters were unfortunate enough to experience. You obviously still think that the 150 plus posters on this thread with similar experiences are unreasonable, wrong, and the reason men can't find a partner. The fact women find some interactions with men as unwelcome and negative doesn't have to have scientific studies to back it, it is our lived experience and you don't have any right to dimish/discount our experience as you haven't experienced being on the other side. Your posts are upsetting and part of the wider problem frankly, why don't you start your own thread?