Random stranger sat on my table at a dinner and tribute act show

[Prontehpronto]

Hi, I went to a dinner and ABBA tribute act tonight on my own (family out of town and no one else to go with). I was having a lovely time, a stranger asked if he could take the extra chair,I said yes cos I thought he was going to pick it up and take it, he proceeded to sit down! He asked why I was on my own,I said hubby was away and I thought I'd enjoy a show, he started telling me about his divorce etc, he was older, 62, seemed not weird and just overly friendly father like figure, but when the shoe carried on he didn't move!!! I said aren't your friends going to miss you, he was like its fine!! I ignored him and turned away, I'm pissed cos he didn't go away and plus I had paid extra for VIP tickets at a table at the front. His friend cane to give him a drink, I thought bloody hell no way,told him not to put the drink down on my table and can you go back with your friends. Bloody ruined my night abit, why did he do that, and how should I have handled it. He prob was harmless but he shouldn't have approached a lone female I don't think and then not gone away!!!

@SweetFemaleAttitude

Maybe the men YOU know are like this. But men I know of this age wouldn't dream of doing shit like this.

Awwwww it's so sweet that you actually believe this. 😂

I live for hilarious and deluded remarks like this on this type of thread. 😆 MANY men do this. Strike up conversations with random lone women. From bars, restaurants, and theatres, to queues in Tesco, trains, and bus stops. Lots of men think any lone female is fair game to be hit on, or listen to their drivel about their life, their job, their divorce, or their fucking hernia operation!

You're 50 shades of utterly deluded if you think any different. Your own husband very likely does it, and also your dad, your brothers, your brothers-in-law, your uncles, your male cousins, your male work colleagues, and if they're adults, your sons too.

I am just turned 60, and whilst I don't get hit on much (except occasionally by men 70+) I do get random men around my age cornering me to chat, not letting me get a word in edgeways, and they often start telling me all about their health issues. The amount of time they've been waiting on the NHS list for their varicose veins operation, the fact they have been given beta blockers, oh - and they think they need new glasses. They're on the list for laser surgery too. AND they need 2 dental crowns, but they can't get into the dentist for 3 months because they're so busy.

Why they think some random woman gives a flying fuck about the health issues of a man they don't know just eludes me. Any attempt by me to change the subject (or say anything about myself) is ignored, as they just want to talk about themselves. If it's not their health they want to bang on about, it's the big cruise they've just been on, or the new Jaguar they've just bought themselves, or the new £10,000 kitchen they've just had put in their big 6 bedroom detached house. They generally CBA to listen to anything I've got to say.

@Zow But he didn't DID he? He sat next to a woman who he suspected would be more compliant and weak, and who he could hopefully get to shag later. How wrong he was!

Right. But the reason why men do this is because it's seemingly the only way to speak to women. If men sat by themselves and waited for women to speak to them, then women would never speak to them.

How often do you see women making threads on mumsnet saying "no one ever approaches me" or "only horrible men approach me"? You will see that from time to time. On the other hand, how often do you see threads saying "my approaches never go well" or "i always seem to approach the wrong people"? The answer is never.

If the social norm was for women to approach men (which make a hundred times more sense from a social standpoint), then these awkward interactions with men approaching women would be a thing of the past.

You just don't get it @shuggles Women going out looking/hoping for a connection with a man (and wanting to meet someone/be in a relationship,) is NOT THE SAME as men hitting on lone women and forcing their attention on conversation on them.

I'm not wasting any more of my time explaining the obvious to you. I can only surmise that you are a man, and I'm done with you. Same goes to anyone else who has the same thoughts and attitude as you.

@Zow Women going out looking/hoping for a connection with a man (and wanting to meet someone/be in a relationship,) is NOT THE SAME as men hitting on lone women and forcing their attention on conversation on them.

So we have:

a. A woman in public who is hoping for a connection with a man, a desire to meet people, and a desire to be in the relationship.
b. A single man in public.

How do a. and b. talk to each other without the man "hitting on lone women and forcing their attention on conversation on them"?

@Warmfeet · Today 00:49

It's quite an odd thing to go to on your own though, so probably thought you'd been stood up and felt sorry for you.

As previous posters have said, you must lead a very limited and closed life if you think it's odd for women to do anything alone. Like many other posters, whilst I enjoy company sometimes, I LOVE doing stuff on my own too. I particularly enjoy going for walks alone. I don't like going for walks with other people, as I like to go at my own pace, go my own chosen route, and stop and start up again when I wish.

I met a couple in passing tending to their horse in a little field attached to their property (several years ago,) around a mile from my home, and she started chatting to me - just passing the time of day, and she spoke a few more times when I passed. He came to join her a few times. 'Seen you walking around quite often' he said.' Yes I do like to walk.' I replied.

About the 10th time I passed by them (this was about 3 months after the first time I met them,) I spoke for a few minutes and then said 'I'd best go because my husband and I are off to see our 2 adult DC later and I need to get ready.' She was like >>> 'Whaaaaa? You have a husband and kids?' I said 'errr yep. My husband doesn't care for walks, and my 2 kids live 15 miles away.'

She looked gobsmacked, and said 'I didn't know you had anyone, I thought you were a lonely. (What the fuck is a 'lonely?' ) I said 'oh no, I'm married over 30 years now, 2 kids both left home now but we see them a few times a month.' 'Awww that's nice' she said, 'I thought you were a lonely person who had no-one, looking to chat to people.' I was like 😐

I said 'errrr, anyway, I best be off.' I changed the route I walked after that, because the more I thought about it the more annoyed I felt. So any woman on her own, must be a sad lonely little loser who is desperate to find someone to talk to her?!!! Fucking hell!

@shuggles there's nothing wrong with conversation between a man and a woman, I like chatting to people.
It depends on situation though surely?
You don't just start rabbiting on at someone sat enjoying a show and being out by themselves.
Sometimes it's nice being out by yourself, enjoying your own company.

This ^ Not every lone women out in public wants or needs to be rescued by some entitled random man who thinks every woman owes him attention, a conversation, and a smile, (and a fucking dance according to the OP!')

Men need to learn that women are not their fucking property, and women don't owe men SHIT.

I take your point that it may be easier all round if it was more socially usual for women to approach men. Many women won't do it though as they are worried that a friendly approach would be misconstrued, given how hard it is even now to manage the expectations of certain men. In many conversations with a man (however nice he seems) I am having to mentally jump ahead to think 'Am I going to be able to get rid of him when I want, without a lot of unpleasantness or even danger?' That is not paranoia either, it is bitter experience.

Funnily enough men & women mostly manage to meet and get together/form relationships even if it may take a little time. The problem is not men chatting to women, it is how badly some men get it wrong as in the situation OP described.

Random man approaches woman at her table and manipulates her into acquiescing to him sitting at her table - an immediate turn off, surely a decent man would be sensitive to the fact that a woman might feel intimidated by that.

Random man's first question is a presumptuous and inappropriate 'why are you here alone?'. Random man doesn't take OP mentioning her husband as he should, a polite 'I am not interested in you'. Random man talks inappropriately about his divorce to a total stranger.

Random man stays put when OP suggests his friends might be missing him - another hint not taken. Random man tries to get OP to dance despite her not wanting to. OP needs to be really blunt to get rid of him. It ends with OP feeling her evening has been spoiled

And yet a few posters complain this bluntness is rude - despite all the rudeness in this situation clearly being on the man's side.

@Zow This ^ Not every lone women out in public wants or needs to be rescued by some entitled random man who thinks every woman owes him attention, a conversation, and a smile, (and a fucking dance according to the OP!')

How do men distinguish between women in public who are willing to talk to men and those who are not, before speaking to them?

@Livingtothefull I take your point that it may be easier all round if it was more socially usual for women to approach men. Many women won't do it though as they are worried that a friendly approach would be misconstrued, given how hard it is even now to manage the expectations of certain men. In many conversations with a man (however nice he seems) I am having to mentally jump ahead to think 'Am I going to be able to get rid of him when I want, without a lot of unpleasantness or even danger?' That is not paranoia either, it is bitter experience.

Except you have overlooked the fact that the reason why men (wrongly) pursue women relentlessly, even when a woman has expressed disinterest, is because western culture around dating and relationships teaches men to keep pursuing women to try to change their mind. This culture would not exist if women approached men instead.

Random man approaches woman at her table and manipulates her into acquiescing to him sitting at her table - an immediate turn off, surely a decent man would be sensitive to the fact that a woman might feel intimidated by that.

What do you suggest instead? Random man approaches a group of women?where he will be unable to have a clear conversation with any specific individual, will be criticised for ruining the night out that the group of women are having, and will find himself to be ridiculed?

@shuggles How do men distinguish between women in public who are willing to talk to men and those who are not, before speaking to them?

The issue in the OP's case wasn't that he spoke to her, it's that he kept on speaking to her and being in her close presence when it was clear it wasn't wanted.

Random man needs to learn the difference between forcing himself into conversation with a woman minding her own business and wanting to continue doing so, and getting a response from someone happy to chat.

My ‘massively ageist generalisation’ is based on what me and my friends in their 40s-50s experience when we are in the receiving end of arrogant, borish, sexist bullshit. 9 times out of 10 it comes out of the mouths of older men in their 60s and 70s. I also know lovely gentlemen of that age but I’m standing by my broad generalisation, because I find it ‘broadly’ to be true.

She said he was 62. I grew up with New Romantics in the early 80s and I’m in my 50s. 🙄

Get a grip. What a pathetic nation we have become if people cant talk without being labeled perverts. Just nod and smile and ask him to leave if he doesnt get the message.

@sunnydaytoday0 The issue in the OP's case wasn't that he spoke to her, it's that he kept on speaking to her and being in her close presence when it was clear it wasn't wanted.

Yes, which is a symptom of a culture in which men are told to pursue women. That's what happens when men are expected to pursue women.

I would take issue @shuggles with the believe that if women felt free to approach men, this alone would definitely resolve the problem. Rather, this would likely be indicative of the kind of society where women would be confident that they could initiate, continue and end an interaction whenever and however they chose and that their choices would always be respected. Because a fundamental respect for women would be taken for granted.

To put it bluntly: we would have to no longer live in a patriarchal society.

The problem is not due to women's unwillingness to approach men (ie once again women's fault) but due to a basic lack of respect for women and women's spaces on the part of some men, underpinned - I agree - by a culture that encourages men to be persistent and brush aside women's objections.

What I suggest instead is that such men have the sensitivity and respect to be able to read social cues and know when their attention is not wanted, and not waste their time. A man approaching a lone woman at a table as a 'sitting target' is so rarely going to be a good idea and I would expect any man I would be interested in talking to to be sensitive enough to understand that.

Men have always pursued women and its only the last 15 or so years when it's tailed off a bit. Anyone who's ever been to a bar/pub/club pre 2010 will probably have been hit on many many times! In this case I suspect the fact he was an older fella was the annoyance. Had he been 40 and fit it would have been a compliment.

@Livingtothefull Rather, this would likely be indicative of the kind of society where women would be confident that they could initiate, continue and end an interaction whenever and however they chose and that their choices would always be respected. Because a fundamental respect for women would be taken for granted.

Well keep dreaming, because you can't build that society unless you take the initiative.

So long as women don't approach men, men will choose to do it instead.

A man approaching a lone woman at a table as a 'sitting target' is so rarely going to be a good idea and I would expect any man I would be interested in talking to to be sensitive enough to understand that.

I don't think approaching a table of 4-5 women is a good idea either.

So let's go back to my original question. You have a woman in public who is willing to meet and talk to men, but is unwilling to initiate any such dialogue. You have a man in public who is willing to meet and talk to women.

How do the above two people meet without the man first initiating conversation with the woman?

@shuggles It is far too dangerous for women to approach random men. You never know if he's going to think any chat is a come-on and that you're "gagging for it" and start following you, harassing you or far, far worse. Women on this thread have given so many examples of men not knowing (or, as I often suspect, pretending not to know as they can't all be THAT socially inept) that the woman they're talking to is deeply uncomfortable and wants them to leave. It's a very common experience for us to have.

If men want dates, they can use dating apps so that they know that the women they interact with are looking to meet someone, or meet people the old-fashioned way, through friends or shared activities. Approaching strangers out of the blue has never been the main way of meeting romantic partners, despite what lots of men say about the good old days.

@ShuvieTupya Men have always pursued women and its only the last 15 or so years when it's tailed off a bit. Anyone who's ever been to a bar/pub/club pre 2010 will probably have been hit on many many times!

Agreed. It was extremely common more than a decade ago. Now, there are far fewer men approaching women because men are slowly but surely learning that it is not socially acceptable.

Note that the man in this case was older than 60. He likely doesn't use the internet much and has not witnessed any of the intense backlash from women about being "approached."

For boomers and Gen Xers, approaching random women in public is completely normal because that was the only way for people of those generations to find romantic partners.

@shuggles don't you think its bad though? I know I do. 2000 years of men approaching women just gone because of social media and dating apps where you find a partner online like you find a washing machine. Sad times.

@HolidayAtNight It is far too dangerous for women to approach random men. You never know if he's going to think any chat is a come-on and that you're "gagging for it" and start following you, harassing you or far, far worse.

And yet, this already happens. So how is this scenario more dangerous than the current setup with having men approaching women instead?

If men want dates, they can use dating apps so that they know that the women they interact with are looking to meet someone

The man in this case was older than 60, and dating apps/websites may be completely foreign to him.

or meet people the old-fashioned way, through friends or shared activities.

How do men meet women if they have no friends, or few friends (as is commonly the case in men over the age of 30 or so), or do not engage in any activities which involve meeting other people?

@ShuvieTupya don't you think its bad though? I know I do. 2000 years of men approaching women just gone because of social media and dating apps where you find a partner online like you find a washing machine. Sad times.

I'm not sure why you think that's a bad thing. The small number of times I have approached women, it has never gone well and I have absolutely hated myself for doing it. Women agree that they also intensely dislike being approached by men. So clearly, the practice is not socially acceptable and it is a good thing that it is becoming less frequent.

I am pretty sure finding a washing machine is far easier than being matched on a dating website though.

Do young people not chat each other up at nightclubs and such like any more then ? It would be very odd if all relationships were started through online medium these days. Although I do think one of the saddest things about increased wfh is many people met their life partners that way, often working together and developing a mutual respect for each other before getting together romantically.

In any case the rules should be consistent. Fine to approach someone politely, but read their signals carefully and back off quickly if the attraction is not reciprocated.