JKR being uncharacteristically quiet

[Jdugsgsgwyd]

Anyone else noticed since the news that JKR is being sued by Imane Khelif she's been very quiet, unless I'm mistaken she's hasn't tweeted at all in about a week.

and hasn't responded at all to the legal action being taken against her. This is very unlike her, I'm thinking she's been advised by her lawyers to keep quiet. Anyone else think she might have put her foot in it this time?

So to conclude

• Men don't have vaginas except when they do
• Your sex is your sex recorded at birth except when it isn't
• XY chromosomes mean you're a man except when it doesn't
• An awful lot of people seem to think they have magic insight into what's in Khelif's pants, how she went through puberty and what her testosterone levels are when actually none of us know this
• Biology is basic, sex is simple
• JK Rowling is definitely the cleverist woman on earth

Did I miss anything?

Yes. You lot all asserting that IK has a vagina. I call that 'magic insight'. 🤔

You missed everything. By a country mile.

Did you also burst out laughing at the ‘colloquial’ vaginas your mate thinks exist?

As "us lot" have explained several times, we're not basing that conclusion on "magical insight" but on the evidence of the fact she was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl, a decision which would have been based on the appearance of her genitals. You have no such evidence to back up your claims.

Been away to eat dinner, while I was gone has anyone given a suggestion for a DSD that meets the info given by IKs own team ("anomalous" karyotype and male testosterone level) yet?

Then I'm sure you can easily explain to me the definitive evidence that I've missed that proves Khelif is male, if it isn't her genitals, birth sex, or chromosomes?

How so? You’re going to have to explain that.
Vaginas aren’t ‘colloquial’, particularly in this kind of discussion where words matter. Words have meanings. You don’t seem to have a grasp of the meaning of the word vagina.

POV when you've lost the argument but you still gotta nitpick because if you can prove your opponent used one (1) word incorrectly you can still feel like you won even when everything else you said was demolished

You do know that assumption doesn't = fact, don't you?

Seeing as sex can be incorrectly observed/assigned at birth?

I would never use this language. It is far too positivist and simplistic- it is the language used by a pp who I entirely disagree with. I don’t think I am qualified to sit in judgement of IK’s body and sex from my armchair. I’m not that arrogant or judgemental. She was identified as female and raised female. She is legally female . She is a cis woman. Is it possible she has XY chromosomes? Yes. Is that incompatible with being female? No,

So, on the evidence of observation of external genitals (and not colloquial vaginas) IK was ‘assigned’ female at birth and that is, as far as you are concerned, irrefutable and conclusive proof of womanhood?
I’m not on MN that often but I’m going to take a punt on assuming you might just be on board with TWAW. If that is a correct assumption (and I apologise if it isn’t), does that mean that, AFAYAC observation of a Transwoman’s external genitalia at birth is irrefutable and conclusive proof that they are male?

‘I’ haven’t said anything else prior to that…..and….it’s quite an important word with quite an important meaning, in the context of this thread, no?

It seems to me that a lot of this hinges on what you define as a female

Is a female an individual with XX chromosomes?
Is a female anyone who says they are a female?
Is a female someone who can carry a pregnancy?

1. is clear cut and has no ambiguity
2. is ambiguous as fuck
3. is incorrect as there are plenty of females who cannot do this for a multitude of reasons

Using a vanishingly rare case of an XY individual with Swyers that managed to give birth does not prove that either 2 or 3 are correct.

How about this thought experiment (if you believe in definition number 2)

I am a female. According to my chromosomes, my external appearance, the way I feel - everything. I was born female and I am still female.

Could I choose to identify as a trans woman? Would I be accepted in to trans women only spaces, if such spaces exist? Can I start a support group for transwomen of which I am the founding member?

I mean is it possible everyone in Khelif's life from the moment of her birth including her entire family and every medical professional she's ever seen, has been colluding in the lie that she has female genitalia? Yes. Is it likely? No, not really. It's so unlikely that not even people who think she's "male" are trying to seriously argue that her genitals don't at least appear female. So i don't think that's really the burn you might have thought it was, sorry.

Do you honestly not understand that people can have ambiguous genitalia. Doesn't look like an obvious penis doesn't mean looks like an obvious vulva

"Nobody has the right to judge her for her sex or expect her to divulge very personal information to strangers."

If IK was a dentist or something, I'd agree with you. But where a person's career involves competing in elite sport, especially one with physical contact, it really is the public's business. Don't want to divulge this info? Fine - get a different career.

DSD means that something has gone wrong in the development of the foetus - it doesn't mean that sex isn't binary. If a baby is born with one arm, it doesn't change the fact that humans have two arms as the norm!

If IK is female, then they should be willing to test and prove it. The argument that being Algerian would make this risky doesn't add up - if she's female then there's nothing to be worried about is there? And if not, then IK has no business boxing against females.

Are you 12?

Thing is, nobody on this thread is actually arguing 2) that Khelif is female just because she says she is. She isn't trans and I'm not clear on why you're trying to drag the debate round to whether or not trans identities are valid. It's not really relevant to the question, except in as much as it does seem to be the case that the people most invested in arguing that Khelif is male also hold anti-trans beliefs. I do suspect the two view points are ideologically connected- the gender critical movement really needs sex determination to be binary and straight forward or many of its arguments collapse - but they are separate subjects. To get back to the post's original subject, I suspect this is where JKR erred - having immersed herself in the anti-trans echo chamber, she didn't realise quite how unpleasant and distasteful her remarks about Khelif would look to people outside it, who aren't immersed in the trans debate, who may even agree Khelif has an unfair advantage, but also recognise it's wrong to call her a man.

Would it somehow disprove my argument if I was?

• Men don't have vaginas except when they do

Some babies are born with ambiguous genitalia due to a DSD which may result in a baby being incorrectly "assigned" the wrong sex. This doesn't mean that men can have vaginas,

• Your sex is your sex recorded at birth except when it isn't

It can be recorded incorrectly when a DSD is involved. As we have always stated. This does not apply to the vast majority of people who claim to be the opposite sex.

• XY chromosomes mean you're a man except when it doesn't

In the majority of cases this is true. Sawyers and CAIS have already been discussed on this thread. As stated then, IK doesn't appear to have either. And again, these do not apply to the vast majority of people who claim to be the opposite sex.

• An awful lot of people seem to think they have magic insight into what's in Khelif's pants, how she went through puberty and what her testosterone levels are when actually none of us know this

No. We have come to a conclusion based on the failed tests, higher testosterone (as confirmed by their coach), longer reach and body build.

• Biology is basic, sex is simple

Again, in the vast majority of cases it is. Does a baby bring born without legs mean that we are not a bipedal species?

• JK Rowling is definitely the cleverist woman on earth

No one said that. Someone just said she is cleverer than you.

Exactly this.

the gender critical movement really needs sex determination to be binary and straight forward

It's a bit silly to blame GC feminism for the fact that there are two sex categories at the Olympics!

Actually, they are. Every time we argue the actual
issue at hand, you guys bring it back to the trans debate when it suits and then back to the IK debate when it suits.
You don’t have to answer my question, of course. But it would be interesting to hear your opinion. Can I identify as a trans woman?

What's Khalief got to do with trans people?