JKR being uncharacteristically quiet

[Jdugsgsgwyd]

Anyone else noticed since the news that JKR is being sued by Imane Khelif she's been very quiet, unless I'm mistaken she's hasn't tweeted at all in about a week.

and hasn't responded at all to the legal action being taken against her. This is very unlike her, I'm thinking she's been advised by her lawyers to keep quiet. Anyone else think she might have put her foot in it this time?

Of course it can, in the case of DSDs. Which we know because the true sex can be shown using phsyical tests later in life.

What cannot be shown is that trans people (other than a trans person who also has the rare event of a DSD that leads to incorrect observation) are incorrectly observed at birth, because there is no physical basis to their belief that their sex is somehow "wrong". Their sex was correctly observed. They may well have feelings of gender that they believe do not align with their sex, but this does not mean the fact of their sex was wrongly observed. Gender and feelings are not the same as body sex.

Loving the genderists on this thread trying to pretend that thinking you should have been the opposite sex is the same thing as a physical test of body sex!

that someone who believes they are the opposite to their birth sex was mis-identified at birth

This is the experience for some people with DSDs . It’s not uncommon.

So come - do tell me GC folk of mumsnet - if:

1. its possible to be both trans and have a DSD,

and 2) its possible that some people with DSDs have had their sex “incorrectly observed” at birth.
Do you acknowledge that some trans people therefore might logically be correct about their “true” sex and its wrong assignment?

I must've dreamt all of the people asserting he has a vagina! 🤯😱

What cannot be shown is that transpeople (other than a trans person who also has the rare event of a DSD that leads to incorrect observation)

Oooo yes! Here we are ! Sooo some trans people might be right that their sex was incorrectly observed? If they also have a DSD?

Interestingly it’s only with recent medical technologies that most DSDs can be observed… I do wonder if there are other aspects of biological sex development that can’t be observed with current technologies that might be discovered in the future..

you think you can see into a baby’s vagina from looking at the outside of the body? The ignorance is pitiful.

What is so hard to understand here?
XY = male
XX = female

There's nothing to understand when it is incorrect.

It takes 1 minutes to Google and find the correct information, yet over and over posters assert the above, undermining those who challenge it, when they are the ones who are scientifically wrong.

I mean, the good GC posters of mumsnet have devoted several threads now to discussing how Khelif must be a man who's lying about being a woman. Do I expect Algerian authorities to be more open minded? I really don't think it's a sure bet, no. The ultra-conservative position is very much that sex is binary and that binary cannot be crossed (isn't it funny how closely GC and ultra-conservative views tend to align? But don't worry, I'm sure it's a coincidence)

Someone with Swyers doesn't have a SRY gene (make male gene) which is why it's now considered a female DSD. Women with Swyers do not produce eggs so could only become pregnant using IVF. It's a rare condition and pregnancy is even rarer

Frankly IK’s genitals are an irrelevance as you don’t box with a vagina or penis. What is relevant is that IK’s body has been virllized via male puberty With all the unfair advantages this bestows. This process is the entire reason why sports are segregated by age and sex.

You must at least acknowledge that this might be possible given that this has been the case in the past…

So is it also conceivable that trans people might understand something about themselves that you don’t? That they might in fact be “correct” about who they really are, and you might be wrong, because you have “wrongly observed” their sex. Is that at least a logical possibility?

So what you're saying is Khelif could have XY chromosomes and still be female? Isn't that rather a major contradiction of every single other argument in favour of her being a man on this thread?

Yet another person making up facts about Khelif's puberty. We do not know whether she had a "male" puberty. This is your assumption, not a fact.

Starting to sound like sex isn’t quite so simple after all.. 🤔

Male levels of testosterone rule out Swyers, virilisation rules out CAIS.

The male levels of testosterone that we don't know that she has you mean? Even the IBA aren't claiming they checked her testosterone levels.

Also, can you define what you mean by virilisation? Is that your "sciencey" way of saying you think she looks like a man? How feminist of you.

You will note I did not give the terms on which sex is defined. I did not, for example, mention chromosomes. Nor did I suggest the physical tests were simple, simply that it was possible to prove when sex is genuinely wrongly observed through physical tests, which is different to relying on self-professed identity.

The reason I did not got into details is precisely because I do know that there are vanishingly small edge cases like this one. I believe exactly 1 XY individual has gestated their own baby from their own ovum - this was a case of mosaicism. Another very small number of XY individuals with Sawyer syndrome have been able to gestate using donor eggs and significent medical support. These are cases where the DSD has caused an XY person to develop anatomy that is so close to female that to all intents and purposes they are female. Crucially, these people either do not produce testosterone or produce it but cannot utilise it.

IK, as I am sure you are aware, has tested with non-female levels of testosterone and exhibits androgenised features. IK therefore is not one of these edge cases.

I do not deny that the developmental pathways of the human body are complex and fascinating. This does not however mean that we cannot perfectly well corretly identify which people belong in women's boxing and which do not, any more than the fact that red and green both exist on the same spectrum means we cannot use traffic lights.

Her testosterone has not been tested. No one has any idea what her levels are.

Off topic but I am reading a Robert Galbraith at the minute and it is AMAZING!!

Ouch Vivienne Mary, you do punch hard below the belt don’t you? A few barely talented child “actors” that JKRs books and films gave enough money to so that fortunately they don’t have to worry about working at any job ( let alone proper acting) for the rest of their lives mouthing off because it was the woke thing to do. I can see why she would be so desperately upset and want to retire from public view and hold her wheesht for ever more.

I'm only persisting here for the lurkers.

Prominent trans people in the UK include:
Freddy McConnell - has given birth to two children
India Willoughby - fathered a son
Jan Morris - fathered five children

There are plenty more. There is no way round the biology when it comes to reproduction, which is the only reason mammals have biological sex. Nowadays we are fortunate that we can control whether we want to reproduce or not, and quite right too, but if a person decides to do it, they have to provide either a small gamete (in which case the person is male) or a large gamete (in which case they're female).

Khelif,'s own coach said testosterone levels were high and they were taking steps to reduce it . No female would be required to reduce testosterone

Yes tandora, I agree with both your points 1 and 2 and always have.
What I don't agree with is that it's not uncommon, I think it's very rare. I also don't believe it should be used as a reason to allow males in female spaces and provision.

So now we've established that, do you think that IK might actually be Male with a DSD then? Seeing as sex can be incorrectly observed/assigned at birth?

High enough that the female boxers unfortunate enough to be in a Spanish training camp with him had to be replaced with experienced male boxers because he beat the shit out of them.

Khelif,'s own coach said testosterone levels were high and they were taking steps to reduce it . No female would be required to reduce testosterone

Shh, we're ignoring that inconvenient fact!