to exclude my friend from a holiday because she's got a boy?

[brownmouse]

regular here blah blah (we need an acronym for this )

I have a small group of 4 friends, we all have 1 child of the same age (5)

One of us has a boy

I am arranging a summer break for us all but the three of us with girls really don't want the other person coming along. The girls play nicely together while we sit around talking. The boy is loud and whacks the girls and is constantly full of energy, and is constantly knocking into us, interupting our conversation.

We'd like a summer BREAK where we sit around while the girls play. If we invite the mum-of-boy it won't be a break, it will be noisy and stressful.

Should we arrange it and exclude her, or just invite her and accept that it will just be a child-focussed holiday?

Have you thought that maybe the mother of the boy in question may herself need a break?? her DS sounds like hard work and maybe what she needs is for her friends to help out, and he may benefir from letting of steam whilst away.

Agree with makingdo, if someone thought my dc was too whatever I'd not want to know them. I've seen the difference with boys and girls at dds swimming yes the boys are wild and boisterous and hard work but they're brilliant fun to be with if "channelled" correctly! And even when not thier exuberance is infectious.

Personally we don't do the going away with friends thing it's too political and fraught with potential difficulties like a freidnship ending. The only exception I would make is if there were loads of us with separate accommodation so we could mix and mingle/isolate as we pleased.

Brownmouse, imagine you didn't fit into this 'dymnamic' would that be okay of the three of them went without you? You obviously do a lot together otherwise you wouldn't have this dilemma, it's not as if you're going to Barbie world without your friend and her son, is it?

dynamic

a coupe of them occasionally go away to big children's activity parks together which I wouldn't want to attend - I'm vaguely aware of the plans but don't think 'I want to be part of everything!'

I just hope they have a nice time and enjoy hearing about it afterwards

I thought most people's response to this would be much the same, that people understood that they didn't always ADD to every single outing/event

I think it depends. If there's a fluid group where some go/some don't etc then it's fine. If there's a fixed group and suddenly one person is excluded because of their child, well they're going to get offended unless they have Rhino hide.

Message withdrawn

Yes, I think YABU! Even if it isn't because he is a boy and just a difficult child, if this woman is your friend you should be supporting her. She probably could do with a break away. To be excluded from her group of friends would be heartbreaking for her.

A group of girls together may play nicely for a while but girls can be very bitchy and fall out easily at that age. A boy could be a useful addition to the group.

Poorly worded or not, WAY too much has been thrown at the OP. And I speak as someone who has been 'that' friend. I have a completely normal 4YO DS but my definition of completely normal is worlds apart from my friend who has an 8YO girl. We had a holiday from hell with these friends which ended up with us being more or less accused of not bringing our boy up properly. He is - I guarantee - perfectly normally active/boisterous and so on. Although the friend in person did apologise afterwards and did emphasise that having met some other boisterous kids she now understood a little more, it still left the friendship maybe 75% damaged. Even now - 2 years on - we are only just putting it back together.

So, why am I defending the OP? Because I can still totally see my friends' point of view, horrible as it was. Her idea of calm peaceful lunches in 'proper' restaurants with a bottle of fizz became frenzied affairs with my DS bored and desperate to get away and play, and running backwards and forwards and so on, and upset because there was (for example) only game or veal or casseroles on the menu when all he wanted was to eat something he recognised. and all the time her DD was doing the 'little princess' thing and getting annoyed with DS. The experience was horrible and she was annoyed with me for my DS spoiling her plans, whilst I was annoyed with her for even thinking of booking up posh restaurants. Result - utter misery, even though we could 100% see each others' reasoning & POV.

The next year we weren't invited to a long weekend that she organised and she explained that she wanted to stick with older cildren (which encampassed all of our mutual friends and excluded us). I understood why she did this but I was all the same. It hurt much more deeply than I ever expected, being quite a pragmatist and fairly logical. So they all wanted to go to posh restaurants and take their kids for dinner way past a toddlers' bedtime? Fair enough. Didn't stop me sobbing my heart out though.

Only thing I can suggest if you want to do this is to call her up and say you are sorting out all your dates ove rsummer holiday and there has been a suggestion for a weekend away doing girly things, probably in a spa resort (make up whatever fits and sound girly enough to make it clear that it would not appeal to her DS). Tell her you were thinking about this but would love to also slot in a different weekend where just you and her and your two DC's go away to Alton Towers, or whatever, as a foursome. Ask her if she fancies is and take it form there.

I reckon this is the only way out that won't leave her feeling wretched or you frustrated at not having the holiday you want.

Message withdrawn

If you have the sort of friendship group where some can be 'left out' then there's no dilemma???

Have you thought that she, may not want to go away with you, because her ds would want to run around and play, whereas you and your friends seem to have little china dolls as dds who play quietly and don't interrupt your girly chats!!

Sounds very boring and sensible, i personally would opt for a wonderfully rowdy bunch of energetic 5 year olds, girls or boys running around getting very dirty with lots of noise and giggles. As for friends well, sitting around discussing how you are not going to invite a certain someone because their child is just not good enough, you wouldnt be my first choice as as a friend.

I'd have to agree with cola in that I'd be loathe to spend time with people that I had considered "friends" that spent time sitting around having a conversation about a "fantasy vacation" without me and my child. I think it would be more palatable if it was a situation where you GENERALLY spent less time with her due to problems, but you're only excluding her from one particular holiday and then "ta-da"! everything goes back to the way it was - bestest buddies again! Naive, at best, really.

I'm a bit puzzled as well by your comment that when you get together with the children as well, you expect the mother to entertain her child. When you get together with mothers AND children, you should be doing something that EVERYONE can enjoy, not just the girls and then primly say "well, it's up to her to entertain him." If I had children (both boys and girls) coming over, I would try to put together a few activities that they ALL would enjoy, so that nobody feels left out. My DD has enjoyed the rowdy play just as much as DS does. Water balloon fights, tag in the park, climbing trees, getting dirty - it's not restricted to just boys! And I think that as a friend, if I was a parent of one of the girls, I would encourage them to find something they can all play together. No, they may not always be fast friends, but at age 5, they will see you exclude your friend and her child because they're "different" and think that's an appropriate way to treat people that are not the same as you. Not a very good lesson, IMO.

I have lots of friends that are really good friends to me, but our DCs are not friends, they have very different characters, different ages etc. One of my long standing friends has a son exactly one month older than my DS, we met when both DSs were 3yrs and they didn't like each other, my DS actually used to sit and cry if this friend's DS was coming round! We carried on the friendship with both boys until they were about 6, we used to go out to the park or something to make it easier. After that we met without the DS because we get on really well, we met for lunch today (on our own). Another good friend I met when another of my DSs and her DS were best friends, they went to secondary school and drifted apart but the friend and I still meet.Friendships change-you can't force DCs together because the adults are friends, it seems a bit silly to say that you couldn't have a friend who didn't like your DC! You have to be realistic with holiday companions-if you want an enjoyable holiday!

As the mum of a big boisterous, chatty, in you face boy and with no constructive parenting guidance and a 1st time mum I was a boisterous back with him. I was also quite detrmined to exhibit being a mum in charge of her son to fit in with a group of mums at the toddler group. Nothing was ever said about any of this to my face.

Imagine my abject horror and devastation to receive an unsigned recorded delivery letter asking me to leave the group for 3 months due to my poor parenting. Undid all the good work the GP had done for my PND. I felt very alone and very isolated.

Your 'Friend' doesn't need people like you and your clique. What the hell do you do to mums you don't like?

And why go on holiday with your kids but not want to be bothered by/with them (double ) Never understood that one meself

Assuming your're not a troll YAB (sodding) U

It is not a question of not being a friend and support , the OP was very concerned about the mother, that is why she started the thread. My holidays are very precious to me-I want to relax and spend time with my family-I am not prepared to go on holiday when I know that it is going to be spoilt for me. (I might if I was having several holidays and I could write one off, but I usually just have the one).

Hmmmm I think I get this

Not only do us women have to give up our careers, figures, time, energy and lives for our children, but we are also expected to give up our holidays to "help out" friends with difficult children!

And if we don't, then we are bitches who don't deserve friends. Did I get that right? Don't you think you are allowed to be selfish when planning your own once-or-twice yearly break?

And can you imagine your HUSBAND coming home crying because he'd been excluded from a playdate or trip or holiday? Raging and being "devastated" and saying he would never contact his friend again? I just can't see it. I'm saddened by the fragile egos of the women on here.

I am glad that someone agrees morningpaper! I am normally an unselfish person and do lots for other people, but I want a lovely relaxing holiday with my family. I can't believe the amount of people on here who would willingly go on holiday with a child who will make it stressful because they want to be kind to the mother. I will be kind and supportive most weeks of the year not on my holiday. I wouldn't leave them out-just elect not to go with any of them.

shock @ 'We can't really arrange a holiday without kids because it's not fair on the husbands to look after all the children.' Now this is the thing that really shocks me on this thread. So none of these husbands are fathers of the children in question, is that it? Or have they all had their parenting skills surgically removed? Unbelievable. No wonder there are some questionable attitudes to boys implicit in your OP if the men in your life are so utterly useless.

Im with Morning Paper - and I am a Mum of a boisterous boy. Fully support the OP.

Well I don't think I could go off on holiday with my friends while my DH looked after my young kids

But then I certainly wouldn't do it for HIM

I wouldn't look after the DCs while DH went on holiday so I wouldn't expect him to do it for me-unless we had lots of money to keep having lots of holidays! While we only have one -or two at the most- I want to go with my family-not friends.

I'm not sure how relevant this is but my friend banned her sister's DD from going round to play with her two DDs for the same reason - it always ended in tears and was exhausting for everyone. Curiously the sister understood the situation - there were no hard feelings and after a fairly substantial break they retried it and it worked fine. It's a personality and combination of rather than whose what sex IMO.

I think they were about the same age IIRC