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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the Union Jack racist?

273 replies

cupcaske123 · 13/08/2024 16:53

Eamonn Holmes had a bit of an argument with a guest on GB News as to whether the Union Jack is racist.

I understand that the George Cross is associated with the Far Right but had never associated the Union Jack with racism.

Apparently people at a village hall in Norfolk didn't want to be accused of racism for flying the British flag.

I think it's madness, what do you think?

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/eamonn-holmes-gb-news-union-jack-b2595611.html

Eamonn Holmes shuts down GB News guest in fiery Union Jack row

Holmes told anti-racism activist to ‘give me a break’

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/eamonn-holmes-gb-news-union-jack-b2595611.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Whammyammy · 13/08/2024 23:00

Anyone that thinks the Union Flag (not jack) is racist should make their way to dover/Heathrow/Gatwick/pancreas etc. It's the flag of our nation. Nothing racist at all.

cupcaske123 · 13/08/2024 23:02

Whammyammy · 13/08/2024 23:00

Anyone that thinks the Union Flag (not jack) is racist should make their way to dover/Heathrow/Gatwick/pancreas etc. It's the flag of our nation. Nothing racist at all.

It's also called the Union Jack.

OP posts:
XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 23:02

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 13/08/2024 23:00

Wasnt the Union Jack associated with all things positive in the 90s? We had Tony Blair, the Soice Girls, the Mini car all adorned in the flag. It was everywhere for a few years. What happened?

Well you could put it like that provided you actually perceive Tony Blair and the Spice Girls as "positives" 😃

Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 23:05

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:57

You clearly struggle with reading comprehension if you think that post was "minimising" anything.

"One stupid misadventure hardly compares"

Is the very definition of minimising.

The irony of questioning my comprehension when you don't seem to understand your own words.

Feel free to double down but it's there in black and white.

squishee · 13/08/2024 23:06

BetteDavisChin · 13/08/2024 17:10

What it represents aside, I'd like to say that I think the design is stunning and genius.

Agree!

Racist no (WTF?)
Jingoistic maybe, depending on who is brandishing it.

EricHebbornInItaly · 13/08/2024 23:06

Flammekuche · 13/08/2024 17:05

Unfortunately, it’s been, like the St George flag, co-opted by far right movements, and, like it or not, those usages are now part of the flag’s ‘meaning’.

Symbols depend on context. If I see a Union Jack painted on kerbs in a NI town, it’s telling me a very different thing to what the same flag on a hat at the Last Night of the Proms would.

Yes, as someone as a U.K. citizen but an immigrant from one of the colonies, this is exactly how I see the flag.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 13/08/2024 23:06

I just remember it being everywhere. London was cool, the Union Jack was decoration. Geri even wore the iconic Union Jack dress. What has happened in the last twenty odd years to make it so despised?

miserablecat · 13/08/2024 23:06

A local sports club had lots of flags out today to welcome back an olympian

Rummly · 13/08/2024 23:06

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:52

No, as I stated clearly, I don't believe the Saltire carries the same Imperial connotations as the Union flag.

But it’s a completely false position though, isn’t it?

Scotland is represented in the Union Jack. Scotland had a very active and successful role in British colonial rule and administration. As did Wales.

We may look on the whole thing now as a terrible aberration, of its time, but none of the UK’s nations can creep away from responsibility.

Whammyammy · 13/08/2024 23:06

cupcaske123 · 13/08/2024 23:02

It's also called the Union Jack.

In the navy yes.

cupcaske123 · 13/08/2024 23:10

Whammyammy · 13/08/2024 23:06

In the navy yes.

It's called the Union Flag or Union Jack.

www.royal.uk/union-jack#:~:text=The%20Union%20Flag%2C%20or%20Union,part%20of%20the%20United%20Kingdom).

OP posts:
Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 23:14

Rummly · 13/08/2024 23:06

But it’s a completely false position though, isn’t it?

Scotland is represented in the Union Jack. Scotland had a very active and successful role in British colonial rule and administration. As did Wales.

We may look on the whole thing now as a terrible aberration, of its time, but none of the UK’s nations can creep away from responsibility.

Indeed.

No we can't deny our role. I find it tends to be some nationalists who try to use it as part of a misplaced argument in favour of independence or those who lack a fundamental understanding of our history who try to blame the English alone. Either way we can't rewrite history and nor should we try to.

rayofsunshine86 · 13/08/2024 23:16

No, it is not racist.

It does annoy me that do many people were flying it backwards or upside down in the crowds at the Olympics. This shows how little national pride we have.

I think the Union Flag is one of the most wonderful flags in the world.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 23:16

Rummly · 13/08/2024 23:06

But it’s a completely false position though, isn’t it?

Scotland is represented in the Union Jack. Scotland had a very active and successful role in British colonial rule and administration. As did Wales.

We may look on the whole thing now as a terrible aberration, of its time, but none of the UK’s nations can creep away from responsibility.

It's obviously true the Saltire is there, present within the Union flag, but the Saltire also exists outside the Union flag, and as I said, Scotland never had any Empire of any significance when the Saltire alone was in use to represent Scottish nationhood, whereas the Empire itself only existed as a notion after the advent of the Ensign of GB and then the Union flag.

It's hardly a stretch then, to point to this as the obvious reason why the Union flag might be perceived to have connotations of Empire that the Saltire does not.

I am not, and never was, attempting to make any point whatsoever about Scots participation in the Empire, aside from admitting their active part in it, merely to point out why one flag might carry connotations that another does not, which was the original question, not whether or not Scotland played a part in Empire and/or Scots in Imperialism.

If some people perceive the Saltire to be representative of a Colonial past, then I would not argue with that perception because Scotland is undoubtedly a major participant in the UK and GB's colonialism, however, I've never heard the Saltire described as a symbol of Imperialism, or that claim made about it, whereas I've heard that claim made for the Union flag repeatedly.

Whammyammy · 13/08/2024 23:16

Yup. Just states flag. Jack term uncertain in that post. Do some homework

KnittedCardi · 13/08/2024 23:17

It's ironic really that nationalist think they own the flag of St George. It's used by other countries, and many states. It's a symbol of the crusades, not great you might say, but then the Italians don't seem care about that either.

The North American colonists (Europeans, English, Scots, Irish, French) pretty much wiped out the indigenous population. They are very proud of their flag to the point of obsession. Flags everywhere. Patriotism is huge.

WeAreManyUArefew · 13/08/2024 23:19

It’s just click bait. Or the tv equivalent - see also ‘winter fest’ in place of Christmas…

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 23:19

Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 23:05

"One stupid misadventure hardly compares"

Is the very definition of minimising.

The irony of questioning my comprehension when you don't seem to understand your own words.

Feel free to double down but it's there in black and white.

That's "comparison", a wholly different concept.

WeAreManyUArefew · 13/08/2024 23:20

It’ll
look a bit different when Northern Ireland and Ireland re-unite. Perhaps the Welsh dragon could be popped in there instead?

cupcaske123 · 13/08/2024 23:21

Whammyammy · 13/08/2024 23:16

Yup. Just states flag. Jack term uncertain in that post. Do some homework

Union Jack or Union Flag – what do you call the UK’s national flag?

Vexillologists know that either name is valid.

In 1908 Parliament confirmed that ‘The Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag’.

https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/uk-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/

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Marseillaise · 13/08/2024 23:26

RunningThroughMyHead · 13/08/2024 18:05

Other countries wave their flags with pride. But we can't wave ours with pride without coming across as racist.

I despair sometimes, genuinely. Sucks the joy out of everything.

So how come thousands of footie fans wave them with pride at international matches year after year after year without anyone saying they're racist? Ditto all those people at the last night of the Proms, and people gathering for all sorts of royal events?

Your so-called despair, if it's real, is firmly rooted in your magination. Don't blame anyone else.

AsiaFlyer · 13/08/2024 23:26

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

the Union flag is associated with Imperialism when the Saltire is not.

The Scots were strongly represented in the British imperial project (I'm descended from a lot of them) and merchant classes of the time.

Many colonial-era firms in Asia have flags that reflect the Saltire. HSBC's hexagons are derived from it, Swire, Jardines, Hutchison too I think, and many that have now disappeared.

DoAhhDiddy · 13/08/2024 23:36

Flags cannot be racist 😂

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 23:38

DoAhhDiddy · 13/08/2024 23:36

Flags cannot be racist 😂

Ask Black US citizens in the bible belt about the Confederate flag.

Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 23:40

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 23:19

That's "comparison", a wholly different concept.

It's not just the comparison part. "One" is minimising and inaccurate. We played a huge part for many years. It wasn't a one off. 'Stupid' and 'misadventure' is language used to create the impression that something was accidental or unplanned. That there was no malice or deliberate intent.

I can appreciate some of your points in the follow up posts but that post in itself was absolutely minimising.

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