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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the Union Jack racist?

273 replies

cupcaske123 · 13/08/2024 16:53

Eamonn Holmes had a bit of an argument with a guest on GB News as to whether the Union Jack is racist.

I understand that the George Cross is associated with the Far Right but had never associated the Union Jack with racism.

Apparently people at a village hall in Norfolk didn't want to be accused of racism for flying the British flag.

I think it's madness, what do you think?

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/eamonn-holmes-gb-news-union-jack-b2595611.html

Eamonn Holmes shuts down GB News guest in fiery Union Jack row

Holmes told anti-racism activist to ‘give me a break’

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/eamonn-holmes-gb-news-union-jack-b2595611.html

OP posts:
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6
Tulip2478 · 13/08/2024 22:03

Thepeopleversuswork · 13/08/2024 21:51

@cupcaske123

The thread is about the Union Jack not the George Cross. The Union Jack was the symbol of the British Empire.

I know and I have said I don’t think the Union Jack is racist (usually). I dont think the George Cross is inherently racist but at the moment it’s subject to a bit of “capture”.

But people saying: “why is it racist to fly an English flag and not a Welsh one” are missing the point. Obviously the flag of the nation which conquered all the other nations has a different symbolic register. That doesn’t automatically make it “racist”, but the flag of the underdog serves a different purpose to the flag of the conquering nation. It’s obtuse to pretend they are all coming from the same place.

I thought that Scotland wasn't conquered but formed a union with with England?

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:04

cupcaske123 · 13/08/2024 21:41

The thread is about the Union Jack not the George Cross. The Union Jack was the symbol of the British Empire.

The Scottish were heavily involved in the British Empire as were some Welsh and Irish.

Yes, they were, however, the Saltire predates the Act of Union, and as pre-Union Scotland had no Empire of it's own, every single Imperial action has taken place under the English flag, or that of the Union, possibly why those are perceived as representative of an Imperial past by some, while the Saltire, Welsh, and Irish flags don't carry the same connotations.

The ultimate irony here is that the Act of Union itself could reasonably be described as an act of Imperial conquest, so even if you only consider the Union flag to be an amalgamation of that of four separate nations and nothing else, that in itself still represents Imperialism.

AllMyExesWearRolexes · 13/08/2024 22:05

James I was king from 1603. The Union flag was only created following the Act of Union in 1707, when Queen Ann was on the throne.

Thepeopleversuswork · 13/08/2024 22:07

@Tulip2478

I thought that Scotland wasn't conquered but formed a union with with England?

Technically that’s correct. But England effectively annexed Scotland.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:13

Tulip2478 · 13/08/2024 22:03

I thought that Scotland wasn't conquered but formed a union with with England?

Scotland "formed" a Union under duress, after embargo, under the threat of complete financial implosion and possible English invasion.

A tiny proportion of wealthy Scots voted to dissolve the Scots Parliament and cede Scots Sovereignty to England. The overwhelming majority of Scots had no say in this whatsoever, so hardly some sort of "voluntary" agreement.

Annexation under duress, but that's not the version of history that used to be taught in the UK.

DownNative · 13/08/2024 22:15

AllMyExesWearRolexes · 13/08/2024 22:05

James I was king from 1603. The Union flag was only created following the Act of Union in 1707, when Queen Ann was on the throne.

Incorrect. 👇

King James aimed to unite his two Kingdoms of Scotland and England so he could become the King of Great Britain.

He ordered its creation in 1606!

So, the Union Jack predates the Treaty Of Union 1707!

Your knowledge of history was off. 🤷‍♂️

Is the Union Jack racist?
Rummly · 13/08/2024 22:17

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:13

Scotland "formed" a Union under duress, after embargo, under the threat of complete financial implosion and possible English invasion.

A tiny proportion of wealthy Scots voted to dissolve the Scots Parliament and cede Scots Sovereignty to England. The overwhelming majority of Scots had no say in this whatsoever, so hardly some sort of "voluntary" agreement.

Annexation under duress, but that's not the version of history that used to be taught in the UK.

Scotland bankrupted itself with a failed attempt at colonising Central America. England bailed it out. But Scots Nats always seem to forget about that.

tommika · 13/08/2024 22:17

Portakalkedi · 13/08/2024 21:01

Both sad and bonkers that people in an English village are scared or ashamed of the national flag. We should be able to display them anywhere we like, just as in every other country in the world.

They aren’t scared or ashamed of the national flag.

https://claxtonpc.norfolkparishes.gov.uk/2024/07/11/minutes-from-claxton-parish-councils-meeting-held-on-tuesday-2nd-july-2024/

They discussed their planned new flagpole and it was mentioned that flags can be decisive.

The parishoner has been proven to be right by the reaction

Draft Minutes from Claxton Parish Council’s meeting held on Tuesday 2nd July 2024

Visit the post for more.

https://claxtonpc.norfolkparishes.gov.uk/2024/07/11/minutes-from-claxton-parish-councils-meeting-held-on-tuesday-2nd-july-2024

DownNative · 13/08/2024 22:17

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:13

Scotland "formed" a Union under duress, after embargo, under the threat of complete financial implosion and possible English invasion.

A tiny proportion of wealthy Scots voted to dissolve the Scots Parliament and cede Scots Sovereignty to England. The overwhelming majority of Scots had no say in this whatsoever, so hardly some sort of "voluntary" agreement.

Annexation under duress, but that's not the version of history that used to be taught in the UK.

Democracy didn't exist in the world as we understand the term today back in those centuries.

But it wasn't a conquest of Scotland either.

Tulip2478 · 13/08/2024 22:21

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:13

Scotland "formed" a Union under duress, after embargo, under the threat of complete financial implosion and possible English invasion.

A tiny proportion of wealthy Scots voted to dissolve the Scots Parliament and cede Scots Sovereignty to England. The overwhelming majority of Scots had no say in this whatsoever, so hardly some sort of "voluntary" agreement.

Annexation under duress, but that's not the version of history that used to be taught in the UK.

Yes i think i read that there were riots in Scotland after it was formed. I don't think many ordinary people got a say in govermental matters at the time, including common English folk. Scotland also lost a lot of wealth after failing to colonise Panama I believe. Still, they colonised like the English and were heavily involved in the slave trade, but I suppose as this was in the empire, or the union flag, you wouldn't consider the Saltire to be racist but the union flag would be?

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:22

Rummly · 13/08/2024 22:17

Scotland bankrupted itself with a failed attempt at colonising Central America. England bailed it out. But Scots Nats always seem to forget about that.

Nobody has "forgotten" about Darien.

One stupid misadventure hardly compares to a long-standing global Empire in every corner of the globe, which was the entire point for the purpose of expressing why the Union flag is associated with Imperialism when the Saltire is not.

FinalInstructionstotheAudience · 13/08/2024 22:26

DownNative · 13/08/2024 20:27

Incorrect!

It was always originally called The King's Jack and His Majesty's Jack before being called Union Jack from 1674 onwards.

The Jack part comes from the Latin Jacobus which means James as in King James VI of Scotland & I of England who styled himself the first Unionist King of the Kingdom of Great Britain. Hence, Union Jack.

It's a Royal flag and NOT a naval flag. The name was around long before the jackstaff on a ship was invented. 150 years before, to be precise.

Union Jack is perfectly correct.

No, it was the umion flag

blacksax · 13/08/2024 22:26

spuddy4 · 13/08/2024 16:55

Absolutely ridiculous. I also don't understand why people who fly the English flag are always deemed as racist but here in Wales we are seen as patriotic if we fly ours.

Countries all over the world proudly display their national flags but only here in the UK would it be seen as a bad thing.

^ This. Flying the flag of the country you live in is not racist.

It is St George's cross. The same one that is used by the Red Cross, a humanitarian organisation, which helps to prevent human suffering the world over.

Rummly · 13/08/2024 22:26

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:22

Nobody has "forgotten" about Darien.

One stupid misadventure hardly compares to a long-standing global Empire in every corner of the globe, which was the entire point for the purpose of expressing why the Union flag is associated with Imperialism when the Saltire is not.

Seems an odd point to make though.

Scotland tried to become an imperial power, failed and needed union with England to feed itself. Are you saying that Scotland is a more highly regarded nation because its imperial ambitions ended in disaster?

LiterallyOnFire · 13/08/2024 22:27

One stupid misadventure hardly compares to a long-standing global Empire in every corner of the globe, which was the entire point for the purpose of expressing why the Union flag is associated with Imperialism when the Saltire is not.

The thing is, at one time empire building was all the rage. There wasn't widespread acceptance that it was ethically wrong (some exceptions). Most developed nations had a go. England/UK had the twin advantages of an exceptionally good navy and some well funded gung-ho posh chaps to lead the way as explorers and with private companies.

I don't think you can claim Scotland (for example) was less culpable just because they were less successful.

Purplebunnie · 13/08/2024 22:28

Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 18:00

But many do though. Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium etc..

Britain itself was invaded many times. Some Welsh, Irish and particulary Scots played a large part in the British Empire and were involved with some of the worst atrocities or profited from colonisation. It seems disingenuous to only blame the English. We can't rewrite history because it doesn't suit our narrative.

Everyone seems to forget the Romans, the Romans had quite an extensive empire, as did Ghengis Khan.

Rummly · 13/08/2024 22:31

Purplebunnie · 13/08/2024 22:28

Everyone seems to forget the Romans, the Romans had quite an extensive empire, as did Ghengis Khan.

And the ancient Greeks.

When Alexander of Macedonia was 33, he cried salt tears because there were no more worlds to conquer…

Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 22:34

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:22

Nobody has "forgotten" about Darien.

One stupid misadventure hardly compares to a long-standing global Empire in every corner of the globe, which was the entire point for the purpose of expressing why the Union flag is associated with Imperialism when the Saltire is not.

Oh please. We were just as bad as the English, if not worse. Stop minimising the Scottish as colonisers and slavers.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:50

Tulip2478 · 13/08/2024 22:21

Yes i think i read that there were riots in Scotland after it was formed. I don't think many ordinary people got a say in govermental matters at the time, including common English folk. Scotland also lost a lot of wealth after failing to colonise Panama I believe. Still, they colonised like the English and were heavily involved in the slave trade, but I suppose as this was in the empire, or the union flag, you wouldn't consider the Saltire to be racist but the union flag would be?

you wouldn't consider the Saltire to be racist but the union flag would be?

I don't really think much of anything when it comes to flags, because I perceive notions like patriotism to be a bit silly. Nobody has control over where they are born, it's simple accident of birth, and I find that wherever I've gone in the world I meet some people who are of a similar outlook to me, and others that couldn't be more different, so I don't even subscribe to any theories about Scots, or Brits, having any particular commonality beyond occupying bits of land that share borders.

I see flags as representations of tribalism and the sort of world that most people are glad to have moved on from, if anything, and don't feel any affinity with any of them. It's just another expression of daft notions like patriotism. There's nothing to be "proud" about having been born somewhere. Nothing to be ashamed of either, but I just don't see sharing a birth place as somehow a common unifying factor between people when two people can live next door to each other and be complete opposites in every respect, yet have everything in common with someone on the other side of the planet who they have never met.

I suppose if anything, I'm always a bit wary of anyone who expresses any strong association with any flag, and it's why I don't really go in for bunting and overt displays of national belonging, even though I accept for most people it signifies nothing more than their own, personal, sense of belonging. It's not for me though.

I think any flag can be used as a tool of racists, hence why I will always point out that Scottish "nationalists" are not one homogenous mass, because there is a small number of people who associate themselves with the movement who are, for all intents and purposes, "blood and soil" type Nationalists. They still wave around the Saltire, but I don't view it as synonymous with them or their brand of Nationalism, and nor do I view it as sullied by association. It's why I, personally, will not wave around a Saltire though, because I don't want to be taken for that sort of extremist or someone with exclusionary views. To that extent, I can understand why English people might be wary of carrying their own flag around, or that of the Union.

I am a republican, and since the Union flag is invariably linked with the monarchy, I find it objectionable in that respect, but I don't automatically link it with racism. To me it's more synonymous with Sectarianism, because it's often co-opted by Scots who are themselves sectarian bigots, and revel in overt displays of their own bigotry, so if you really pushed me I'd probably admit that I view it as a symbol of bigotry more than straightforward racism. I think if there are negative perceptions of the Union flag they will vary depending on location though, and that one is particular to Scotland and possibly NI. I can't speak for how people in Northern Ireland view it though.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:51

Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 22:34

Oh please. We were just as bad as the English, if not worse. Stop minimising the Scottish as colonisers and slavers.

First thing I did was admit Scots active participation in the Empire, so give your virtue signalling sanctimony a rest.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:52

Rummly · 13/08/2024 22:26

Seems an odd point to make though.

Scotland tried to become an imperial power, failed and needed union with England to feed itself. Are you saying that Scotland is a more highly regarded nation because its imperial ambitions ended in disaster?

No, as I stated clearly, I don't believe the Saltire carries the same Imperial connotations as the Union flag.

Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 22:55

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:51

First thing I did was admit Scots active participation in the Empire, so give your virtue signalling sanctimony a rest.

Don't be ridiculous. The post I quoted you on absolutely minimised. If you don't want to be pulled up on it don't write rubbish.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 13/08/2024 22:57

Willyoujustbequiet · 13/08/2024 22:55

Don't be ridiculous. The post I quoted you on absolutely minimised. If you don't want to be pulled up on it don't write rubbish.

You clearly struggle with reading comprehension if you think that post was "minimising" anything.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 13/08/2024 23:00

Wasnt the Union Jack associated with all things positive in the 90s? We had Tony Blair, the Soice Girls, the Mini car all adorned in the flag. It was everywhere for a few years. What happened?

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