Is the Union Jack racist?

[cupcaske123]

Eamonn Holmes had a bit of an argument with a guest on GB News as to whether the Union Jack is racist.

I understand that the George Cross is associated with the Far Right but had never associated the Union Jack with racism.

Apparently people at a village hall in Norfolk didn't want to be accused of racism for flying the British flag.

I think it's madness, what do you think?

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/eamonn-holmes-gb-news-union-jack-b2595611.html

I'm mixed race - Jamaican dad, British mother, born in Britain so I am British. I've only been to Jamaica once on a week long holiday which was beautiful but not home.

Anyway, it offends me that the flag I see as my own is now supposedly a symbol of racism. I do get a bit uneasy around the St George flag purely because of the Far Right ties and I know a couple of racist families that permanently display it outside of their homes. However, that pisses me off too because I'm English and should be able to celebrate that but it has been marred by louts.
As for the British flag, I have clothes from Fatface that I purposely bought with a little Union Jack on!

I swear stories like this are just another chance for the media to cause division and becry worry.

It’s a shame that the George cross has come to be so synonymous with the EDL and racism that even when I know that logically it’s not meant that way, I do always do a mental double take when I see one.
As a Welsh person I don’t like the Union flag and I don’t feel like it represents us at all. But I don’t think it’s racist.

Do you actually understand the point of Scotland pre-Union being compared to Scotland post-Union?

Darien was, literally, pre-Union Scotland's one and only serious attempt at far-flung colonisation for gain. Hence the purpose of contrasting that with post-Union Imperialism, in which Scotland, was indeed a wholly enthusiastic participant.

I don't know how to spell this out any more simply for you.

Scotland's failed, pre-Union efforts at colonisation, Imperialism, Empire building, however you want to describe it, do not compare in any way to what went on post-Union. It's on a wholly different scale altogether, both in terms of scope, and persistence. This is the entire point. The latter took place under the "banner" of the Union, not under the flag, i.e. banner of Scotland, hence why that's one obvious reason why there is possibly an entirely different perception of the two flags.

That is not "minimising", it's empirical fact. Scots efforts to colonize the Darien Gulf failed miserably and were over in short order. The Empire, which was already underway as an English concern by the time the Darien Scheme took place, persisted for centuries and covered a significant proportion of the globe. Again, historical fact. It's in no way "minimising" anything to highlight the contrast between the two endeavours.

Things like this depress me too. But then I have to remind myself that It's only a very very small, but louder-than-everyone-else minority of people who seek to turn something beautiful into something that should be scorned and derided. The overwhelming majority of people simply don't think like that. You may have seen a lot of people doing that at the Olympics but the reality is, a whole lot more of us were sat indoors, glued to the telly and feeling incredibly proud of the GB team representing our country.

Sweet Jesus, as I voted 19% of respondents feel the flag of our union is ‘racist’
pour country is absolutely fucked. 😔

@RocketPanda , Jesus get a 🤬 grip.

Stop deflecting. It's too obvious.

I appreciate the essay but the doubling down is tiresome. You were minimising and no amount of paragraphs disguises it. Several posters have taken issue with your argument but you aren't listening.

There is no purpose to me banging my head off a brick wall so will just bid you good night.

You’re completely avoiding what’s been said.

Scotland’s imperial legacy is bound up with England’s - and Wales’s - because that’s how it was, and is. You can’t create a fantasy world in which Scotland refused to take part in imperial venture just because you have a bigger neighbour who you’d like to blame.

Traditionally, it was a union jack if flown at sea. Union flag on land.
https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/uk-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

I see flags as representations of tribalism and the sort of world that most people are glad to have moved on from, if anything, and don't feel any affinity with any of them. It's just another expression of daft notions like patriotism. There's nothing to be "proud" about having been born somewhere

This is exactly how I feel about patriotism. It’s not “racist” in itself although racists seize upon it pretty quickly when they need to and all racists use it.

Its just silly. Why would you be “proud” or “tribal” over an accident of birth over which you have no control? It’s not a reflection on you to have inherited English, Scottish, Greek, Norwegian or Australian genes or nationality. Why pat yourself on the back for that?

I think taking pride in your country’s accomplishments (sporting success for example, cultural impact or civic success) is more understandable and I can completely get behind this. It’s a tangible distinction by people from your nation which required hard work, dedication and sacrifice.

But the business of flying a flag as an abstract celebration of “being [insert nation here]” is a bit small minded and daft.

Poor people like it !

The horror !

Have militant Welsh nationalists ever tried to invade and colonise other countries?

It really worries me. I don't understand why people give into it so easily. It's like "we surrender, the racists can take whatever they like."

Thanks for making me go FatFace shopping though.

Calm down. Football matches seem to be an exception and, no offence, but it's pretty obvious flags will be accepted at international sports events 🤭

I couldn't put a flag outside my house and local venues don't either, whilst in other countries is very normal to display flags throughout the community.

Political correctness is great to an extent we don't upset people, but it's definitely gone too far where. Real despair I'm afraid!

To be honest I’ve always thought the people who banged on about not being able to fly their England flag because people don’t like it are talking through their arseholes as an excuse to be racist. The kinds of people who tend to be flying flags in my experience though tend to do so to be jingoistic and inflammatory.

You generally don’t see people flying flags without reason, e.g. on St George’s day or if England are in the Euro’s/ World Cup, and in my experience those who go around with the flag tattooed on them or flying it outside their houses for no reason tend to be bigoted and are doing it to make a statement of superiority with quite inflammatory attitudes towards ‘others’, so I can’t help thinking it’s not the flag per se, but the person flying it!

No it's not racist it's our national flag , the same as every other country has .
I'm getting really fed up of these tiresome people who cry racism at every bloody thing .

How on earth would we know? We aren't privy to the thoughts of all the Welsh people who took part in the British Empire or were part of our forces subsequently. I wouldn’t know that about English nationalists either.

From your source:

Vexillologists know that either name is valid

I'm sure they did as part of the British Empire.

Racist apologist bingo on here.

Professionally offended, crying racism, everything is racist now etc.

If you genuinely think, as someone has posted up thread, that the problem here is people who don’t fly the flag with pride and not the actual card-carrying racists who’ve co-opted it……..come on.

A flag cannot be racist.
None of the UK flags are racist.
And they are beautiful, by the way. The union jack is a gorgeous, simple and elegant flag.
I love it. I came here (from Spain) to live under the laws and principles it emcompasses, in my times, this century. Not to judge what went on in the history books, but to fully immerse myself in what UK was 20 years ago, till now. I liked, so I stayed.

Agreed. It's dangerous to attempt to rewrite history to avoid accountability. We learn nothing that way.

Yes, and your point is?
I said 'traditionally', not, it is now. Although traditionalists use the term union flag. Clearly, the addition of 'jack' has become common parlance, but a bit of history is always useful

My point: I was responding to someone who said the correct term was Union Flag. The correct terms are either Union Flag or Union Jack. In the link you gave, it says that either name can be used. I pointed that out. That's my point.

We seem to be arguing with each other about the same thing! 😀
it can be called either
it is commonly called the Union Jack rather than the union flag
I like the difference between the two!!
Have a good one, @cupcaske123