Does 'gentle parenting' work ?

[flowermo]

Let me start by saying that I am not an expert at parenting styles.

I know bits and bobs from reading articles, books, talking to other mums/ grandmas and a lot of reading on Mumsnet.

I understand there are a lot of misconceptions about gentle parenting. However let me summarise my understanding- it's about firm boundaries, but doesn't promote shouting and hitting etc and generally using fear to get your kids to behave. It encourages understanding a child's development phases and what can and cannot be expected of them at any particular stage. Helping them understand and validate feelings, negative and positive ones etc.

Another style of parenting, perhaps the authoritarian style or ' traditional ' style that was used a lot in our parents generation, is a lot more shouty. Perhaps even hitting. Children are scolded for having tantrums and punished. Parents rule with fear of shouting / hitting / scolding. Kids are often scared of their parents. I remember growing up in this kind of household, as did all of my friends really.

I would say I use something in between the two styles with my children. But more on the gentler side. I don't hit but sometimes I do shout for example. I try to understand the stage of development they're at and what I can reasonably expect from their behaviour. I try to use consequences like taking toys away or denying them treats they wanted. I don't think my kids are afraid of me. I don't think I'm a particularly good parent. Or that I'm doing things right. They misbehave and I'm often stressed out. They're still small, 2 and 4 and I'm just trying to find my way.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is. I've been speaking to some other mums of slightly older kids who are also teachers. They really think that the gentle parenting approach is hurting kids and kids are out of control more than they were in the past. More authoritarian methods work better apparently and kids should be scared of their parents and should be worried about getting in trouble ( not violence ) at home, if they mess around at school. Teachers are leaving the profession because kids are so badly behaved and parents have no control over their kids.

What do you think about this? Is gentle parenting working ? Is it true that kids are so badly behaved now ? ( doesn't every generation say that about the new generation? ).

One thing I've noticed is that if I discipline my kids in public, by slightly raising my voice, people do stare. I never see any parents doing that nowadays. It was normal to get a telling off if you messed around in public when I was a child.

I'm not trying to be divisive or judge either side of the debate. I don't know what I'm doing or whether it's right. I guess I spend most of my time thinking I should be firmer, then feeling abusive when I do shout at them. I'm also lost. I really don't want to piss anyone off. So please be kind.

I can’t say whether it works as I’ve never done it but I have 4 adult children and they’ve all turned ok. I’d never smack my children but I have shouted and am very firm with boundaries. I guess pretty much the way my mum brought us up.

my husband is a soft touch especially now the younger two are young adults. Subsequently the youngest takes full advantage of that.

This, the ones who don't set boundaries or follow through because it's easier not to upset your child and deal with the battle.

I'm sure he's a lovely boy. But you are implying that it is natural, unavoidable, completely fine that a 5yo boy hits a 2yo girl. 5yo is really rather old and much larger physically than 2yo. A boy that age should understand not to hurt a smaller child.

He won't stop till he feels ashamed of doing it. You can get there slowly or quickly but that is that, in my opinion. If you never show disapproval of his behaviour he no doubt assumes you don't disapprove of it. And that is what your daughter will grow up thinking, too, that it's normal for a larger boy to hit her, Mummy doesn't seem to be shocked.

No, consequences aren't something you think up. They're not synonymous with punishment.

A natural consequence is something that happens as a result of a particular action or inaction.

In the way that, if you don't leave for work on time, you'll likely be late for work and you might have to work later to make up the time and get your job done. Having to work late isn't a punishment for arriving at work late but it is a consequence of it.

@GreyCarpet So what is the natural consequence of being late for school because you wont get ready? Teachers will not tell off young kids because they see it as the parents fault.

And the natural consequence of a child hitting another child, is they get hit back by that child. That is what most children would do without adult intervention. But that natural consequence is somehow not okay.

But he is stopping - it’s gone from being something he did more frequently when he was a young toddler to now being a very rare occurrence. Without being shamed.

i haven’t said that I’ve never shown shock. I have always explained that he can’t hit, that it hurts, that it isn’t kind. He has always had time to regulate before apologising and always had a consequence of some kind. Your understanding of gentle parenting isn’t quite correct.

additionally, you can hold that opinion which is fine, but factually and from what we know psychologically, shaming is not effective.

a quick google search will reassure that the occasional hitting at age 5 is absolutely normal and the recommended way to respond is not to shout or shame.

I haven’t ever said it is ok for anyone to physically hurt anyone. I am explicitly teaching the direct opposite.

I Understand the concept of, and difference between, a consequence and punishment.
I am suggesting that there does not always need to be a consequence for an action -

for example if a child does not want to leave the park and has a tantrum, holding the boundary means we are still going home despite the tantrum. You can cry and scream etc all you want but we are still leaving home. They don’t need to be punished for not wanting to leave - their feelings are valid. There is also no consequence as far as I can see?

I’d explain we need to be ready by this time and if not then I will have to take you to school in your pyjamas.

Oh my goodness, 2 absolutely no way would I shout at a little baby. She was allowed to play there, so to her wee baby mind, those were all toys like any other. I fully believe people don't understand child development either and that means they make huge mistakes and physically reprimand little children who aren't even developmentally capable of knowing what they're hitting them for. It makes me feel sick.

Yes it works- though I would say I am a “respectful” parent over “gentle”. I respect my kids and expect respect back- this starts from birth. I respect a newborn enough to respond to their cries, to include them in our family and to parent them as best I can and to the best of my ability. As they grow- I respect their big feelings but expect them to also respect other peoples and property too. I tended to use natural consequences over any punishments. I talked to them about stuff- small, big, in between… I listened. And when that meant I listened to my son at 15 asking if his girlfriend could sleep over as they weren’t sexually active- I respected that and made my decision based on him and not what other people thought. I spoke about drugs and alcohol, I valued honesty as part of respect so that meant hearing things that I guess I might have preferred they hid from me…

Two out of 4 are happy healthy adults now and we are still close, no one went off the rails… both respectful emotionally intelligent adults… so yes. It works.

Well the natural consequence is that they miss coming in with their friends and they feel uncomfortable walking into class late. But that is rarely enough to make a difference at home because they aren't able to process what is happening now in relation to how they will feel in 30/45 minutes time. And it would be inappropriate to sanction a child for something that is their parents responsibility, yes.

So, I would ask...

What age are you talking about?

Why aren't they getting ready? What's going on in the house? What are they doing instead when they should be getting ready? Do they have access to phones? Tablets? TV? at that time?

What time do they get up? Do they have enough time to wake up, have breakfast, get themselves ready without feeling rushed? Chance to get their head in the game?

What's the morning routine in the house? Calm or chaotic? Do they have to search for uniform items or is it all laid out the night before? Is their water bottle ready to go? PE kit by the door? Homework? (The last three should increasingly be their responsibility once they get to year 3 or 4).

What's the atmosphere like? Everyone run ragged? Shouting and raised voices? Lots of voices all competing for attention? Or is it calm and peaceful and focused on preparing for the day ahead? Do they sit down for breakfast as a family? Talk about the day ahead? Have the chance to voice any fears or concerns? Are they listened to? To they feel they have been heard?

I've helped with many families with this exact issue and it is always resolved by the parent changing something they are doing at home.

I think that is extremely humiliating and a very harsh punishment. It is using shame to make a child comply.

This is somebody else's home they shouldn't have to move things you need to teach your child not to touch and you need to be actually watch them. I hope you bought your mum a new gravy boat. And this is why I won't let dismissive parents bring their kids round

No because violence is never the answer, two wrongs don't make a right and all children know what they should do (speak to an adult).

However, a natural consequence of hitting someone or being unkind might be that other children don't want to play with you anymore. And that is fine.

It's also at that point that some children make a concerted effort to change their behaviours because they have learnt that, if they want to have friends, they need to be a decent person. They might also need some help and support to achieve that. And that is fine too.

@GreyCarpet so you think if you have a calm atmosphere and you give children enough time to get ready for school there will be zero issues? So if they need 3 hours to get ready before leaving for breakfast club you get everyone up 3 hours before you have to leave?

So they just keep hitting until every other child and parent is avoiding them? That is pretty much what I have witnessed. Kids do not want to play with them and they do not get invited to play dates.
It seems a really harsh way to learn a lesson.

I asked these questions because I think gentle parenting can sometimes be extremely harsh. I think in the examples given, you are using shame to discipline a child by taking them in their pyjamas to school. And using social ostracization to make a child treat other children okay. It seems much kinder to simply say no you don't hit other children, and put them in time out.

I didn't say anyone should "shame" anyone, which implies a sort of public telling off. But he does need to feel ashamed, or contrite if you prefer, if you dislike the word ashamed. If not, if he doesn't ever feel deep down that it's inherently wrong to assault a younger child/girl, but only to fear the consequences- what are you teaching him? It's ok to hit a girl if he doesn't get found out? Or it's ok to hit as long as you're happy to accept the consequences?

I think, by saying sternly "that isn't kind", you are expressing disapproval and thereby mildly causing him to feel ashamed. Which imo is good because that's the only way he will restrain himself from doing it. By thinking in his head "no I mustn't do that, it's wrong, I would be behaving shamefully if I did that."

Imagine feeling entitled to think you and your offspring shouldn't respect other people's possessions and homes.
The mind boggles.

Of course, she's only two and has big feelings.

I agree with this. Some people seem so scared to tell their kids no but have no issues with emotional abuse.

Your job as a parent is to teach your child how to behave, not just let them work it out by themselves. That borders on neglect.

What possible reason would there be for a child needing 3 hours to get ready for school if they have woken up into a calm environment where the focus is getting out of the house and going to school?

Without distractions, there's literally nothing else to do in the morning. There are no alternatives.

Like I say, it's a problem that is always resolved by the adult changing something about the way the morning looks in their house. Whether the adult chooses to follow the advice or how well they follow it is a different matter.

At some point, parents have to parent.

That isn't kind is pretty wishy washy disapproval. You have to understand what kind is and why it matters. Simply saying don't hit, it hurts, is much simpler to understand.
Shame through public humiliation is not a punishment I would inflict on my DCs. Feeling contrition, because they have done something wrong is very different from public humiliation.

Some of this stuff is actually shocking I hope mh services in the nhs greatly improve in the next 10/20 years because my god theirs going to be a lot of screwed up adults