AIBU to point people to an article on the BBC website about the gender row on boxing at the Olympics?

[GenderRow]

This article on the BBC website is the most informative explanation of DSD I have read:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko.amp

Before reading this, I was certain that Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting had male bodies. Having read the BBC article, I can see that it is by no means definite.
I feel very sorry for both of these 2 boxers that the International Olympic Committee have failed to develop proper testing procedures that would determine whether having a DSD would give an unfair advantage in the female boxing category. The IOC should have investigated this issue properly for Khelif and Yu-ting before they were allowed to compete in the Olympics. It is such a shame that these boxers have the humiliation of us all discussing their intimate medical details.

The IOC have let down these two boxers plus all the females who spent years training for this event. Thorough testing and correct competition categorisation would ensure that boxing is fair for everyone.

But from that article it sounds like these boxers have the male sexed DSD, and went through male puberty and do have male bodies. So that article supports your original belief that these boxers have male bodies.

It's not a gender row, it is cheating.

thank for your sharing this.
interesting.

they have been let down

shame on their managers and coaches as the boxing industry wouldnt allow them to compete yet the IOC would.

Sounds a tricky area of science

Before reading this, I was certain that Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting had male bodies. Having read the BBC article, I can see that it is by no means definite.

The tests came back XY. The tests concluded male advantage.

They are obviously males with a DSD.

There is one condition which is technically female XY - Swyer syndrome. They do not fit the profile for that condition at all. Individuals with Swyer have very low levels of testosterone.

It's a balanced article but in terms of the boxers the devil is in the detail. They don't dispute that they are XY. That's all we can based on the IBA tests. For all we know they are 'normal' males with no DSD and cheats. The only thing to indicate they are female is their passports - which are easy to change. Countries have supported cheating at a very high level in elite sports- exploitation of the lack of proper sex testing is not surprising. The IOC is a disgrace for not insisting on proper genetic testing and testosterone levels. Males with or without a DSD have no place in women's sport.

Not for the experts, no. In the vast, vast majority of cases, there is no doubt what sex someone is when their condition is understood.

Social media is full of people wanging on about really complex DSDs like CAIS and Swyers, but they just want to muddy the water and make this opympic scandal sound much more difficult than it really is.

These two boxers have clearly been through male puberty. That's obvious from looking at their hips and the way they walk. They almost certainly have 46 XY 5ARD just like Caster Semenya and the other two males who won the Rio 800m medals.

The colloquial name for the DS is 'penis at 12'. Males with this DSD typically have a small penis and undescended testicles so they can be mistaken for female at birth. But - and here's the key thing - they go through male puberty. At puberty, instead of having periods and developing a female shape, their voices break, they grow an Adam's apple, they gain male musculature and male body hair. Those changes are pretty hard not to notice.

This whole idea that they have no idea they are male is all media hype. There are photos of Caster Semeya in male school uniform (unlike his sisters). There's a photo of him wearing just swimming trunks aged 15 on a school trip. How many 15 year old girls go topless? Khelif's own uncle said that Khelif was playing football with the boys aged 15 when he was spotted by a talent scout. Strange to let a girl do that, unless of course they knew he was a boy already by then.

We all know that lots of sportspeople cheat, which is why there's daily drug testing. It was a political decision by the IOC to stop sex testing. 82% of women didn't want them to stop sex testing. Now countless women have lost out on opportunities, and women are being put in danger of being killed in the boxing ring.

Here's a video of Caster calling women and girls 'they and them' in an interview. He's so used to only pretending to identify as a woman when he's running races, he often forgets and lets the mask slip.

That’s a great article thank you for sharing. Genetics and chromosomes are very complex.

No it doesn't.

It says very clearly having a Y chromosome doesn't mean you have the STY male switch on or you can process testosterone in a way that advantages you if you produce it.

The article just explains exactly why we have no real evidence that these boxers are not female as expressed or if they have male advantage and shouldn't compete.

It gives no answers - just an explanation about why we don't have answers!

What a waffly article.

For 99.99% of individuals a cheek swab will correctly sex the individual and they can participate in the correctly sexed sports category.

We don’t need one rule that encompasses everyone who might have a DSD, if an individual believes they’re female and their DNA testing identifies them as XY then do further testing on that individual such as testosterone etc. Males with a DSD are much more represented in elite sport than the general population, I wonder why?

I am very sorry but a male who has a DSD and is an atypical male (ie small or no penis, infertile) is not then a woman by default. We are not the category for men who do not fit the norm.

The testing explicitly concluded that these individuals have significant advantage over females however.

Whatever DSD these individuals have, it does not fit any XY profile that would be considered female.

Yes it does. If you read the article it outlines the different expressions of DSD, these athletes don’t have the physical expression of those with low testosterone.

These athletes have very visibly been through a male puberty.

The best explanation, in really simple language, is the conversation between Brendan O' Neill and Fiona McAnena on You Tube. I can't link on phone, but it is a "Spiked" video.

I am very sorry but a male who has a DSD and is an atypical male (ie small or no penis, infertile) is not then a woman by default. We are not the category for men who do not fit the norm.

well said @OrangeSlices998

Not at all ‘tricky’ as regards sports: it’s unfair for them to compete in the women’s category

@GenderRow

They are male. They aren't allowed to compete against women in other competitions the Olympics have messed up and allowed two men XY beat up women legally. It's a disgrace. Take a look at them, I see them as men, male puberty shows through.

Yanvvvvvv u

Funny how they've quoted Emma Hilton but don't say she thinks the IOC need to act as a matter of urgency to test the two boxers so that women can be protected from harm. She has quite strong feelings about it so I think it's unlikely she failed to mention it.

Why would a developmental biologist have such a strong opinion that the IOC's failure to act could harm women? Perhaps because she knows that whilst DSD's can be quite complicated but doesn't think this case is one of those that are quite complicated. Both boxers have obviously benefitted from male puberty.

If that’s your take from the article you haven’t understood it.

The XY DSDs that result in people’s bodies developing along the female pattern are irrelevant here. These boxers most likely have the same DSD as Caster Semenya and are males, having gone through a male puberty. Horrible for them, if they thought they were girls until about age 12, but letting them beat up women on an international stage is disproportionate compensation.

If you still don’t understand the science look up Emma Hilton’s writing. She’s great.

Edited for autocarrot error.

And ain't it funny how the two of them are now facing off for gold.

Fucking travesty.

The article is quite informative but grasps at two straws:

That xy doesn't equal male ("If you looked at my patients, they look like women. They are married to men! "🙄). It deliberately mixes up biological sex with social identity

That xy chromosomes don't necessarily confer an advantage and there's not enough data to make a decision. While I fully agree that DSD athletes must be looked at on a case by case basis, it's obvious that athletes that make it to the Olympics don't have one of the more debilitating DSDs (like xy Swyer syndrome = osteopenia and no puberty without hormone therapy). Even males with CAIS are and have historically been overrepesented in women's sports

The article's conclusion that "it's complex, we don't have enough information, even the scientists are confused" is intellectually dishonest

I just hope that they get their medals without actually killing an opponent or causing them lifelong damage.