Page 2 | AIBU to point people to an article on the BBC website about the gender row on boxing at the Olympics?

GenderRow · 2024-08-09T05:22:12+00:00

This article on the BBC website is the most informative explanation of DSD I have read: [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko.amp https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko.amp]] Before reading this, I was certain that Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting had male bodies. Having read the BBC article, I can see that it is by no means definite. I feel very sorry for both of these 2 boxers that the International Olympic Committee have failed to develop proper testing procedures that would determine whether having a DSD would give an unfair advantage in the female boxing category. The IOC should have investigated this issue properly for Khelif and Yu-ting before they were allowed to compete in the Olympics. It is such a shame that these boxers have the humiliation of us all discussing their intimate medical details.

Moreofthesamenothanks · 09/08/2024 07:27

heathspeedwell · 09/08/2024 06:56

Social media is full of people wanging on about really complex DSDs like CAIS and Swyers, but they just want to muddy the water and make this opympic scandal sound much more difficult than it really is.

These two boxers have clearly been through male puberty. That's obvious from looking at their hips and the way they walk. They almost certainly have 46 XY 5ARD just like Caster Semenya and the other two males who won the Rio 800m medals.

The colloquial name for the DS is 'penis at 12'. Males with this DSD typically have a small penis and undescended testicles so they can be mistaken for female at birth. But - and here's the key thing - they go through male puberty. At puberty, instead of having periods and developing a female shape, their voices break, they grow an Adam's apple, they gain male musculature and male body hair. Those changes are pretty hard not to notice.

This whole idea that they have no idea they are male is all media hype. There are photos of Caster Semeya in male school uniform (unlike his sisters). There's a photo of him wearing just swimming trunks aged 15 on a school trip. How many 15 year old girls go topless? Khelif's own uncle said that Khelif was playing football with the boys aged 15 when he was spotted by a talent scout. Strange to let a girl do that, unless of course they knew he was a boy already by then.

We all know that lots of sportspeople cheat, which is why there's daily drug testing. It was a political decision by the IOC to stop sex testing. 82% of women didn't want them to stop sex testing. Now countless women have lost out on opportunities, and women are being put in danger of being killed in the boxing ring.

Here's a video of Caster calling women and girls 'they and them' in an interview. He's so used to only pretending to identify as a woman when he's running races, he often forgets and lets the mask slip.

Good grief.

Why do these people who are obviously male want to be women...so they can cheat with their advantages. Shouldn't be allowed but society is geared towards giving men of all types advantages over women. I see casper a man listen to him, he grew up a boy, he calls women and girls them and they when it slips.

These men are pushing women aside why do some women fawn over them?

StuntNun · 09/08/2024 07:29

EdithStourton · 09/08/2024 07:25

And ain't it funny how the two of them are now facing off for gold.

Fucking travesty.

They are in different categories so it will be two women's gold medals taken by males.

TinkerTailorSoldier · 09/08/2024 07:29

Medical science cannot be a spectrum. Medical science is not feelings. Either they are male or female.
Women have fought long and hard ( and the battle isn't won yet), to be treated equally as men. Lets not let it destroyed by men pretending to be women

Moreofthesamenothanks · 09/08/2024 07:29

Willmafrockfit · 09/08/2024 06:38

thank for your sharing this.
interesting.

Did you read about the male puberty these men go through?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 07:33

The testing shows these boxers have XY chromosomes and high levels of testosterone therefore they are male.

GnomeDePlume · 09/08/2024 07:36

Loopytiles · 09/08/2024 07:16

Not at all ‘tricky’ as regards sports: it’s unfair for them to compete in the women’s category

I agree.

When I watch women's elite sports I want to see the best female (XX) athletes competing.

I don't want to see who has the best pharmacist or who has found the best loophole to climb through.

I want to see women athletes at their best. I don't want to see XY athletes deliberately underperforming/under-training to fly under the radar competing against XX athletes.

When we watch XY athletes competing as women we, the viewers, are being cheated. We are watching mediocre male athletes.

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 07:37

It clearly says in that article, as the clearly stated opinion of an expert in the matter, that sex is not a binary characteristic. That there are many more individuals around that do not fit into the male/ female sex boxes that we think.
But so many people do not accept this. Even doctors who have treated individuals with DSDs are fixated on the binary system and they have been performing surgeries on people with DSDs, that were later found unnecessary, as per later scientific research.
Hopefully all this mess will result in further education of the general population on this.

Underthinker · 09/08/2024 07:40

This article seems perfectly designed to provide a retreat position for the thousands of people online swearing blind that the 2 boxers are XX females, for if and when that position becomes untenable.

endofthelinefinally · 09/08/2024 07:41

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 07:37

It clearly says in that article, as the clearly stated opinion of an expert in the matter, that sex is not a binary characteristic. That there are many more individuals around that do not fit into the male/ female sex boxes that we think.
But so many people do not accept this. Even doctors who have treated individuals with DSDs are fixated on the binary system and they have been performing surgeries on people with DSDs, that were later found unnecessary, as per later scientific research.
Hopefully all this mess will result in further education of the general population on this.

Please would you link to the expert and the research?

Grandmasswagbag · 09/08/2024 07:42

Thankyou it's an interesting article. I think what's clear is that for a very small number of people sex definitely isn't binary. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of putting these individuals through invasive testing when they suffer from a condition that must be horrible to live with. I can sort of understand that it's easier for the IOC to just say they can identify themselves. Especially when they don't have clear evidence that they would be on a level playing field in the mens category. That said I think it's pretty clear that some do have an advantage in the female category and as were talking about a sport where you punch each other there is a safety consideration. They seem to be overrepresented in women's sports.

Having watched some of the womens boxing I'm not convinced that most of them aren't doping with T and the IOC know this. Are they routinely tested? Because I'd read that they weren't. Maybe the IOC justify it because they know full well the one element you can control (T levels) are in fact on a relatively even playing field.

I feel really sorry on a personal level for IK and unlike some posters here have no reason to doubt that she wasn't raised as a girl and identifies as a woman. She may have very female appearing body parts, why would you identify as male in that case? I don't really think there is an answer other than putting them through some sort of testing but again wouldn't some of that be subjective ? I really don't know what the answer is.

PurpleDiva22 · 09/08/2024 07:43

Im a little confused how this is all only coming to light now. Khelif competed in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics as a female boxer.

ASimpleLampoon · 09/08/2024 07:45

What a load of nonsense.

there are two options penis or vagina , male or female , woman or man

Male = penis = man

female = vagina = woman

it's simple.

play the Olympics in the nude as it was originally intended, and no one will be confused.

endofthelinefinally · 09/08/2024 07:45

AssassinsEyebrow · 09/08/2024 07:46

Imane doesn't have DSD or any other intersex condition. She's cis female.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 07:46

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 07:37

It clearly says in that article, as the clearly stated opinion of an expert in the matter, that sex is not a binary characteristic. That there are many more individuals around that do not fit into the male/ female sex boxes that we think.
But so many people do not accept this. Even doctors who have treated individuals with DSDs are fixated on the binary system and they have been performing surgeries on people with DSDs, that were later found unnecessary, as per later scientific research.
Hopefully all this mess will result in further education of the general population on this.

Sex is binary. Every single human is either male or female. There is no third or subsequent sex.

Slothtoes · 09/08/2024 07:47

Why are some sportsmen’s wishes to win being put above all hardworking sportswomen’s physical safety and their right to have a fair competition? Women competing should be able to expect an opponent who has been vetted appropriately by the governing bodies for their sport. This is so far from that. Where are the Olympic ideals?

Any sports governing bodies which still have exclusion criteria that doesn’t protect women competitors from male competition in their sport, simply shows that they don’t care about women’s sports. It’s so sexist that they haven’t addressed this properly. This issue has been current for years now across all sports. There’s no excuse for lax or muddled rules on it. It’s shamefully unfair and could be very physically dangerous or fatal to women.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 09/08/2024 07:47

AssassinsEyebrow · 09/08/2024 07:46

Imane doesn't have DSD or any other intersex condition. She's cis female.

Can you provide evidence of chromosome testing showing xx?

Thought not.

LunaNorth · 09/08/2024 07:47

That article is such a stretch that whoever wrote it should be competing in Olympic yoga.

Babewhat · 09/08/2024 07:48

@OrangeSlices998 ‘We are not the category for men who do not fit the norm’

Literally this 👏

Trikey · 09/08/2024 07:48

The Sex Matters campaign group did a briefing on the issue of DSD athletes yesterday on twitter. They had input from Dr Emma Hilton, a developmental biologist as well as Sharron Davies (a leading campaigner for many years about this issue) and others. All experts in this area. It is incredibly clear that Imane and Lin Yu-Ting are biologically male. There is no confusion or grey area. The BBC and many other journalists are doing a very poor job of understanding and explains the issues. The briefing was very informative and easy to understand and I really recommend that anyone interested in this to find it on twitter.

Grandmasswagbag · 09/08/2024 07:48

ASimpleLampoon · 09/08/2024 07:45

What a load of nonsense.

there are two options penis or vagina , male or female , woman or man

Male = penis = man

female = vagina = woman

it's simple.

play the Olympics in the nude as it was originally intended, and no one will be confused.

Did you read the article ? Some people aren't diagnosed with dsd until they are in their 30s and struggling with infertility! Clearly those people have a vagina as they must be having sex if they are trying to get pg.

Moreofthesamenothanks · 09/08/2024 07:49

Babewhat · 09/08/2024 07:48

@OrangeSlices998 ‘We are not the category for men who do not fit the norm’

Literally this 👏

Indeed, a brilliant answer. It feels like failed or cheating men all get shoved in with women. Real women are losing out.

hannahwaddinghamsbiceps · 09/08/2024 07:49

Sex is binary except for a very small number of individuals who do not fit that.
We should not be altering the rules to prevent upsetting a tiny number of individuals, when that change negatively affects many more people.

And by the way it's sex not gender.
Sports have never and should never be categorised by gender, only sex, and the testing performed determines sex not gender.

PermanentTemporary · 09/08/2024 07:50

We definitely don't know that this boxer is female any more than we know they're male. And the article is not perfect but it's very far from 'a load of nonsense' either.

endofthelinefinally · 09/08/2024 07:52

Some humans with DSD are female. There are several types of DSD, however, all of them are sex specific and clearly defined. I expect the humans with DSD struggling with not being able to get pregnant are the female type of human.