AIBU to point people to an article on the BBC website about the gender row on boxing at the Olympics?

[GenderRow]

This article on the BBC website is the most informative explanation of DSD I have read:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko.amp

Before reading this, I was certain that Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting had male bodies. Having read the BBC article, I can see that it is by no means definite.
I feel very sorry for both of these 2 boxers that the International Olympic Committee have failed to develop proper testing procedures that would determine whether having a DSD would give an unfair advantage in the female boxing category. The IOC should have investigated this issue properly for Khelif and Yu-ting before they were allowed to compete in the Olympics. It is such a shame that these boxers have the humiliation of us all discussing their intimate medical details.

That article obscures the issue. It's not clear at all. It goes into great detail about DSDs without emphasising the fact that most people want to know - the two boxers in question are male.

That you've come away less clear on this fact than before you read the article is exactly their intent.

The stuff about the SRY gene is interesting but irrelevant - the boxers don't have Swyer syndrome. We can plainly see that as it's obvious both have gone through male puberty, plus this can be surmised from what has been said (and not said) by the IOC and the IBA.

The article selectively quotes Dr Emma Hilton, misrepresenting her position. It makes it sound like she wants more testing as it's ambiguous. But in fact, she is very clear that she thinks the boxers are male.

Here is a thread that she has retweeted, saying "The only thread you’ll ever need on the IOC, DSDs and male advantage."

https://x.com/TLexercise/status/1819653748840448310

I strongly suggest everyone reads it, it's much clearer than that article.

The boxers likely have the male DSD 5ARD, same as Caster Semanya.

Which means that although their genitals will have been underdeveloped at birth, leading to them being incorrectly identified as female, male puberty will have hit at the normal.time, at which point their penis will have become obvious, alongside all the other changes typical.of male puberty.

Meaning they do have the SRY gene, so the discussion about that is irrelevant and is creating confusion.

They will have known they are make since puberty.

The quote in the BBC article above a 33 year old discovering she is XY is totally irrelevant to this discussion as she will have had a different DSD, likely Swyer syndrome. Again, confusing the issue.

The BBC is under immense pressure from the trams rights lobby to not speak plainly on this. It's a shame, but their reporting really can't be trusted on sex and gender related issues. (Even when it's actually nothing to do with trans people).

Yes to all this.

The article was misleading.

Most men competing in women's elite sport have the DSD that Semenya does. Many DSDs are not compatible with competing in sport, but that is.

The two boxers know damn week they're men. They have gone through a male puberty. Their coaches know this too.

They are cheats, and the IOC is weak and toothless.

When people say things like this, it just reveals that they don’t understand what the word ‘sex’ means.
Sex ( in terms of sex class) relates to the individual’s role in sexual reproduction. In humans, there are two sexes, male and females. Human reproduction takes place by male sperm fertilizing female eggs.

To make your case that sex is not binary, you have to identify a third ( or more sex) and describe its unique role in human reproduction, a role that it not fulfilled by either the male or female sex. If you can’t do that, you cannot claim that sex is not binary.

When people say sex is not binary, and refer to DSDs what they are actually acknowledging is that there can be disorders of sexual development, which is rather a ‘No shit Sherlock’ moment as probably every part of human anatomy has a disorder attached that some individuals have. It would be utterly remarkable if this did not happen with sexual development.

people with DSDs do not have a role in sexual reproduction outside the male/ female role and they are therefore not a third sex and they therefore are not evidence that sex is not binary.

Sex is binary- there is no third gamete for reproduction. What you do yet are a tiny amount of babies born with indistinct primary sex characteristics where visually it seems that they are male or female but genetically they are the opposite.

In first world countries we can now test early to help these individuals to understand their condition and know what kind of puberty they will have and help parents and children be sure. These conditions are often characterised by infertility, which is incredibly sad and should require a lot of support.

However, it is no surprise to find that the two athletes in question came from countries without proper early testing. I would suspect that these athletes have been brought through as a form of legalised cheating by the people who stand to benefit most- their sport governing bodies and their families. I wonder who will keep the lions share of any money they make. It looks like exploitation.

What's your proof for this?

I remember watching Semenya in 2016 and thinking it was obvious he was male, but a lot of avowed feminists were outraged that his sex was being questioned.

2021 - Olympic Committee devolves responsibility for eligibility tests to individual sports associations

2022 -following concerns raised by ring medics and complaints by other teams' coaches, IK and LY are tested by the international boxing association and found to have xy chromosomes

2023- tests are repeated, with the same result. The international boxing association bans LY and IK from the female category and writes to the international Olympic Committee about it. The IOC takes no action.

LY didn't appeal the decision. IK mounted an appeal but then withdrew it.

The IOC has now disbanded the boxing association and taken over decisions of eligibility. For olympic boxing there is no test to decide who goes into which sex category -it's based on your passport.

I'm sure about the other but one has a birth certificate that says female, they were raised female and only at puberty when periods didn't start did anyone twig something was up but being a poorer country there is no evidence that even at that point anyone investigated, that's why most cases are not from wealthier countries.

You’re misinterpreting here. Sex absolutely IS binary. There is no 3rd sex. Everyone is born either male or female. Some people have a DSD - a type of genetic disorder - which can make it tricky to identify their sex, but we have the medical technology to be able to do so pretty soon after birth.
A male who is born with a different genetic disorder such as trisonomy 21 is still a male.

These boxers have a great deal to lose if they come clean with their sex testing results and end up getting disqualified. First of all, the financial gains to each of them of winning a gold medal is huge. They will receive money way beyond their dreams. For example, in 2021, following the last Olympics, Taiwan gave all gold medal winners 720,000 dollars. That’s a hefty incentive!

@aladderformoths

Indeed, the best way I’ve seen it described is as follows:

Human are bipedal (have two legs). Just because some are sadly babies are born with a different number doesn’t make humans not bipedal.

What we need is support and understanding for all, not obvious lies.

I tend to agree with you, in this case it would mean these athletes would compete as women. It would be pretty shit to be raised as a girl because you are born with girl parts. But you are big, male looking, puberty would have been awful. You are considered a freak because you are different to the gender norm for a girl, but the one area you excel is sport. You get all the way to the Olympics only to be told now you are now not a girl but a man because of you chromosomes. I don't have the answers because I am not a doctor or a scientist but I feel bad for all these athletes - both the ones with dsd and those who might endanger their lives fighting them.

This is a great way to explain it.

I do too. He's male. In childhood he dressed as a boy, pictures in male school uniform. In some interviews he refers to women as them and they 🙄 he is happy with the advantages his sex has given him to beat women. Watch him in interviews, if you didn't know it was Semenya you'd never question it, bloke comes out if every pore, voice, mannerisms, women see men.

Elite sport should be binary. XY you compete in the male category, XX you compete in the female category.

As soon as you stray from this you open the system to abuse. There is a growing amount of money and kudos in female sports. Unscrupulous coaches and sport organisations want that money/kudos and will happily take advantage of any loophole to get it.

Here is the thing, I do agree with this statement. Sex is binary, except for a small number of individuals is to say the same thing, with other words.
We may need another category in sports.
It is for the experts to carry out further testing and research. We still do not know the full biology of it all.
But we do know is not just male/ female for some individuals, who are born this way. Many never found till well passed puberty.

That clearly isn't true. P.S. no such thing as CIS female, just male and female.

And before anyone thinks that women will be clearly women before reaching the age of competitive sports, my dd was nearly 17 and about to see a consultant when her periods finally started, if she had been a gymnast etc she could have already been competing for 2-3 years.

No, sex is still binary, "edge cases" don't change that reality. The gametes of males and females are essential for human reproduction. There is no third sex or gamete.

There are some very complex DSDs. But 46 XY 5ARD is not one of them. if anyone starts trying to confuse the issue by bring up the more complex DSDs then you can tell they are deliberately being dishonest.

The IOC needs to bring back sex testing. It's fucking scandalous that they are putting women's lives at risk just so they can virtue signal about being 'inclusive'.

I was a tomboy growing up. I wore clothes and school uniform which were typically worn by boys. It no way does that make me a man.

Yes, but neither of the boxers have this kind of condition.

The boxers likely have the "male* DSD 5ARD, meaning both have a penis, both have been through male puberty.

Although there are some people who live as women who have genitalia that appears female, but have XY chromosomes, the same is not true in reverse. There are none who have a penis but are genetically women.

The boxers have been through male puberty, giving them an unfair - and dangerous - advantage. And they know full well they are male, even if they didn't as young children. The penis is a bit of a giveaway. But they stand to earn A LOT of money if they can get away with convincing the world to go along with the idea that they're female.

It's cheating, and we can see with our own eyes the women who are being cheated out of their rightful winning positions. It's a travesty.

Did you have a Y in your Chromosomes though

Of course it doesn't but Algeria is a predominantly Muslim country where I wouldn't think it was typical or socially acceptable for girls to wear clothing typically worn by boys.

I was a tomboy growing up too. But I didn't have an Adam's apple, my voice never broke and I grew female hips.

Testosterone is such a powerful hormone that you can tell by looking if someone has been virilised at puberty.

It is extraordinary how people deny the evidence of their eyes. Sex is so obvious in the jaw, the brow, the six o'clock shadow. Men's faces are very differently proportioned. That is before you get to the shoulder: hip ratio, the length of the limbs, the gait, the hands and feet, the Adam's apple and voice.