F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

[StressyStressHead]

DS1 passed and is at a grammar. DS2 is due to sit it in September and prep is not going well.

DS1 had a tutor in yr 5 just for an hour a week and was very enthusiastic as he enjoys that sort of thing. DS2 didn’t want a tutor (fine - i always said I would never force anything on either child) so has been doing prep with me. Just an hour a week. Sometimes sessions go well - often, they don’t. He often has meltdowns if he gets something wrong, and wants to give up and it is so bloody hard to deal with.

ImI don’t care whether my kids go to a grammar or not but the issue is, the non-grammars in our area are not great so if you want a chance at a good school, you’ve no choice but to do the test.

Without sounding like an arse, for those who are bound to make comments like “children shouldn’t need tutoring to pass the test” “why would you put your child under that much pressure”, please understand that:

a) despite what the local authorities will tell you, the 11+ tests kids on lots of things they have NOT learnt in school so to expect them to sit it with no prep is unrealistic

b) competition is ridiculous - kids from miles outside our area sit the test and apply for our local grammars. They have MASSIVE amounts of tutoring which pushes up the pass mark (there’s no set pass mark, it’s based on how the cohort performs that year)

c) believe me, I am doing my utmost not to pressure him but he needs to do some practice - he’s worried all his friends will pass and go to grammar without him - and he’s probably right as so many of them are doing summer 11+ courses and hours of tuition

d) some friends who don’t live in a grammar area have said to me that if he doesn’t want to do the prep, just to tell him fine, that’s his decision but it’s down to him if he ends up at a rubbish school - which seems bloody harsh for a 10 year old!!

I keep telling him this does not define him, it simply gives him a wider choice of schools but I know he’ll feel a failure if he doesn’t pass.

Not sure what my AIBU is, just need to vent.

I've been right there op. Dd1 good as gold with the tutor got her head down and did very well in the 11+ and got her grammar place very comfortably. She is about to start year 10 in a school she loves and her marks astonish me. It was so worth it.

Dd2 started the tutoring very able very easily in the greater depth band for ks2 but the meltdowns just got worse and before I made my mind up she just sobbed until I let her quit. She's thrilled to go to the comp with all her friends and I see now my dds are so different.

But privately I'm dreading it. There are waves of anti social behaviour at that school and it's so vast and unforgiving.

It's hard to explain to a 10 year old what the long term outcomes might be but she was a different child as soon as we stopped.

Op in your shoes I would stop now. What the tutoring did do for dd2 was massively increase her academic confidence and that's been amazing for all of us. I will put her back in with a tutor down the line if she's struggling - at least I know it will help.

Haven’t RTWT - but I would

1. stop trying to tutor him yourself
2. find a tutor who specialises in encouraging anxious or avoidant children
3. bribe DS2 with something good to attend the first session - if the tutor is a good fit he should hopefully get on board with more sessions pretty quickly!

edited because I pressed go too soon!

I agree the 11+ is an absolutely terrible system.

Maybe this story will make you feel better:

DC1 failed the 11+ and so went to a comp . Did tuition with them and they went to tuition that on of the teaches organized after school.

On the second day of y7, there was a maths test. DC1 got highest score out of over 200 kids in the year group, despite not being top in maths at primary.

GCSEs went really well - all 8s and 9s
A-Levels too - 4 x Astar

Now, 2024, DC1 has just graduated from Imperial College London with a 1st!

All that from somebody who did not even come close to passing the 11+ .

Yes this.

But all is not lost it it doesn't work.

Agree
Not every ‘clever’ child is cut out for grammar school.
Mist people I know do what you suggested which is to get some tutoring ( particularly in core subjects) and languages for their dcs

Tutoring can be really fun. I had a tutor for the 11plus and it was a small group on a Monday evening and it was great fun with sweets as prizes, very chilled out. It was made like a load of puzzles and we were encouraged to learn the system to do the puzzles, so it didn’t feel like a test.
Find the right tutor.

I loved my grammar school fwiw. And having been a teacher at plenty of comps, they really don’t compare to a good grammar.

Dc1 did 11+ with only 4 after school 1 hour lessons on how to answer the non verbal reasoning questions. Zero other tutoring or prep. They passed with high marks as they are very academic. Never struggled at their grammar school and are always getting 7-9 grades.
Dc2 had zero prep, is not very academic and suffered massively during covid home schooling. They wanted to sit the test as wanted to go to same school as their friends were probably going to. They didn't pass.
They love their school though. They do so well overall now as no pressure, just support from teachers. They get average 5-6 with some 7s in the subjects they're passionate about.

I honestly would focus your efforts on tutors once your second is in a comp and support them that way if the schools aren't great. As if they're struggling just to prep for the test, they won't be able to handle the pace if they were successful.

This sounds like the situation in Torbay. If it is, I totally get what you mean with regards to the other secondary schools. However, hopefully this helps to put your mind at rest a bit.

DS1, anxious child, wanted to go to the Grammar and all his friends were trying too. Had a complete meltdown most weeks with tutoring but still wanted to go ahead and try the test. He had a panic attack on the first weeks test but pulled it together for the second weeks test, missed the pass mark by 4 places. We tried to appeal but were unsuccessful.

He went to our local school (At the time, not a brilliant one), without most of his friends but ended up having a great time. He asked to be removed from the waiting list for the Grammar. The school he went to got a new Head and picked up quite a bit. He did well in his G.C.S.E's.

DS2, also wanted to go to Grammar but went rogue with virtually no tutoring as he wasn't interested. Nailed it and is currently loving life there.

So, in our experience loads of tutoring didn't work & the stress free approach did. But also, what we thought was going to be a horrible school, ended up being OK. I feel like they both ended up in the place they were meant to be.

I wish your son lots of luck x

Solidarity fist bump OP. At this point I would turn to bribery for the greater good to incentivise them to sit down and work, I did. We did points for every session he did that converted to buying things he wanted. I think it worked out about a pound for every 45 mins. it worked pretty well. Reward the input not the output.

I know you are offering a reward after sitting but hey he will get that hard less of whether he does any work this week so I’d just pay him now to work now.

You have the wrong tutor!

Too often I pick up kids who were enrolled with the local star tutor or with a company that does groups of 10 or more. It doesn’t alway work.

It sounds miserable but I know the pain of having no good choices of local school. I ended up paying for private school because my kid would have sunk in my local secondary. She was quiet, under-confident and slightly anxious. The local school was in meltdown over pupil behaviour and she probably would have simply refused to go.

It’s a fucking horrific divisive thing. It left my dd utterly destroyed. She was top five in her school, we tutored her for a few months before. She really tried. 10 years ago she’d have walked it, with no tutoring, but now we have boot camps and kids being tutored everyday from year 4. She didnt make it - this was the year they didn’t put the answers on the paper for the local kids, which meant a disproportionate amount of non locals got in as they took theirs the next day when the error got in.
it split friendship groups, it left mine a shell.

why can’t you just send your kids to the local school that’s best for them. This grammar system doesn’t work and it’s the kids that suffer.

Dear niece ended up being caught up in the Dorset system. She squeaked in and it's been a struggle ever since. She loves art but it's a pretty poor department, struggles with all the academic stuff.
She is not the sharpest tool and with every year looks more crushed. Poor kid.

Grammar school today is nothing like it was in the 80s.

I feel your pain, OP. The 11+ system is awful
for families, you are right to tutor him, he’s in an unfair position without it. Our non-grammars aren’t great either. My DC got in on 12+, some kids just aren’t mature enough at the beginning of Yr6 to cope. Good luck.

Urgh I hadn't spoken with my DD about it. She got wind of it and decided she wanted to sit it. Up to that point we'd not even considered it, though had been worrying about the local high school options. Not all high schools stream.

Currently trying to balance supporting her to do it whilst managing expectations that she may not get in. I don't want her to feel a failure if she doesn't get a place!

If he doesn't like that style of learning then maybe a grammar school wouldn't suit him anyway?

My youngest is sitting the exam in September. She's had a tutor for a year or so and has really enjoyed it and is really chuffed when she sees her marks rise. Now she's doing practice at home (just twice a week) and is quite happy to do it. Her tutor thinks she has a 50/50 chance of getting in as - like your area - it depends on the average performance of the whole cohort. I just wanted to encourage her to have a go. Most of her friendship group are doing the exam too which I think was also an influence.

My elder child is also clever but was NOT studious. He would have absolutely hated tutoring and I'm sure he would have hated grammar school anyway. The school he went to wasn't the best but it suited him! Bright confident kids will generally do well anywhere. He's now at uni studying a subject he loves and doing really well. We are all different.

I agree with you though that familiarisation with 11+ subjects and format is necessary. The first time I looked at my daughter's practice paper I thought WTF is it asking? (Even though I did the 11+ myself many years ago, it all looked totally alien to me!)

I'm staggered they even exist anymore. Given the government's attitude to "bought privilege" re VAT on private schools and how quickly they've moved on that, you'd think grammar schools would be next in the firing line. Interesting they're not.....

Anyway, in your shoes I'd go for an external tutor, not a chance my kids would listen to me. Or just bin off the tutoring and hope for the best at the non grammar, remove the pressure for you all.

OP you have my sympathies. We are in a grammar area and I’ve been through this hell x 3
2 passed, one didn’t.
All had tutoring - two were iffy about the tutoring and didn’t really enjoy working outside of school but were told to go and that was that. They did their best.
As it turned out the one that didn’t pass was the one who is least academic and probably not suited to it anyway.
We found the best possible comp we could in the wider area (the benefit to us was that it was mixed where all grammars were single sex and mixed was better for child number 3)
It worked out ok but IMO the grammar school for child 1&2 is just better. In fact the grammars are generally better due to 25% of the brightest and most engaged pupils being creamed off. That has huge implications for the other 75%
Its so hard if your child just isn’t academic enough and you are in a grammar area

It’s dreadful that this system still exists

Utterly ridiculous comment

Well you don’t have many options. You either continue the practice at home, and one hour a week doesn’t seem much a month before the test, or you revisit the tutor. I’d gently explain that there is a risk of him going to a different school than his friends, and the fact they are doing a lot of work will make that more likely. As ultimately that’s what will happen, so I’d use that as an incentive to get him to work harder this summer. Maybe break it into smaller sessions, 20 mins at most but more often.

What was their last mock test mark?

Firstly, accept that something isn't working - I suspect that you're trying to do too long in a session, or not regularly enough so that they're used to it.

I'd stop for a couple of weeks, then just do 20 minutes a day, put it on a timetable on the fridge and offer a reward for completing it. But break it down into maths, a comprehension, VR, NVR, reading the newspaper and underlining the words they don't know, times tables grids (if they need them) and a day off. Let your son decide when and which days he does each.

If he isn't into even doing that, I'd just stop - grammar schools have a lot of homework.

An awful thing about the 11+ is it labels children at the tender age of 10 a failure. Pass - or Fail. And they carry that Fail label
all their lives. Even worse if their sibling passed. I grew up in an 11+ area and saw it really divide siblings when some passed and went onto Grammar (then Uni and professional careers) while the failures went to rubbish secondary moderns and left school at 16. (No comps in my area). They never forgot how failed the exam at age 10. Many resentful. This was in the 80s and I know things have changed since.

Pre kids we ruled out living in any 11+ areas for this reason - the risk of having one child who passed and another who didn’t.

I know it’s not an option for you to move but I do think you should be bad cop, hire tutors and make your child cram cram cram for five weeks to give him the best shot (even if it’s a long shot). It’s only five weeks. He might resent you for not making him try harder, later in life. Good luck.

Just to reassure you - my kids both passed their 11+ exams without tutoring. I don't think they're the only ones either - everyone says it's not possible but it is.

I also know several kids of extremely pushy, started tutoring in y4 type parents who have totally crashed at GCSE level.

And finally, my teacher friends all say good kids with good, supportive parents can and do thrive at 'bad' schools.

We did play some games that I thought would help. Sneaky tutoring I suppose! Articulate. Boggle. Things like that. You could try that?

This answer stands out: you are their parent. You set the course. Do you take him to the dentist? Do you take him to vaccinations? At 10 he can’t see ahead into the future. You are the parent, it’s your job to guide him.

if Ou can’t tutor him then you need to engage a tutor who can teach him but I think you’re 6 weeks out now from the exams. Why not rescind your application altogether and let him take the 13+? It’s a CAT test (cognitive aptitude) and replicates what he does in school times. But if he sits the 11+ and fails then he can’t take the 13*.

@StressyStressHead I hope you find some way to lessen the stress for you all.