F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

[StressyStressHead]

DS1 passed and is at a grammar. DS2 is due to sit it in September and prep is not going well.

DS1 had a tutor in yr 5 just for an hour a week and was very enthusiastic as he enjoys that sort of thing. DS2 didn’t want a tutor (fine - i always said I would never force anything on either child) so has been doing prep with me. Just an hour a week. Sometimes sessions go well - often, they don’t. He often has meltdowns if he gets something wrong, and wants to give up and it is so bloody hard to deal with.

ImI don’t care whether my kids go to a grammar or not but the issue is, the non-grammars in our area are not great so if you want a chance at a good school, you’ve no choice but to do the test.

Without sounding like an arse, for those who are bound to make comments like “children shouldn’t need tutoring to pass the test” “why would you put your child under that much pressure”, please understand that:

a) despite what the local authorities will tell you, the 11+ tests kids on lots of things they have NOT learnt in school so to expect them to sit it with no prep is unrealistic

b) competition is ridiculous - kids from miles outside our area sit the test and apply for our local grammars. They have MASSIVE amounts of tutoring which pushes up the pass mark (there’s no set pass mark, it’s based on how the cohort performs that year)

c) believe me, I am doing my utmost not to pressure him but he needs to do some practice - he’s worried all his friends will pass and go to grammar without him - and he’s probably right as so many of them are doing summer 11+ courses and hours of tuition

d) some friends who don’t live in a grammar area have said to me that if he doesn’t want to do the prep, just to tell him fine, that’s his decision but it’s down to him if he ends up at a rubbish school - which seems bloody harsh for a 10 year old!!

I keep telling him this does not define him, it simply gives him a wider choice of schools but I know he’ll feel a failure if he doesn’t pass.

Not sure what my AIBU is, just need to vent.

I have one at grammar and one at comp, .one are the other way round.

Eldest sort of wanted it but didn't really work. Doing any tutoring homework was like torture. He did ok but didn't get a slot but has thrived at the local (very average) comp and should do well in his GCSEs next year. Looking at the Grammar for 6th form instead. He's also learned he's actually quite smart, it's been a huge confidence boost for him as he's in all top sets etc and he's got a lovely hang of friends.

So don't be scared by the comp option. Even though we had some wobbles and issues, he's grown up dealing with these and actually it's been really good for him in terms of understanding people to have to deal with life and people in all it's myriad forms. He's empathetic, well rounded and self aware.

Your other is in a secondary modern, not a comp.

@RedditFinder i did go to Halesowen grammar school look it up on facebook no longer a grammar school went comprehensive the year i left in 1972 i was in Windsor house which was blue ribbon and god knows why but we had to learn Latin as one of our languages, did not do general science we had to do biology, chemistry and physics as seperate subjects and English was split into language and literature i dont go round lying i hated it there

That's misguided.

One the pushy parents would just send their kids to the better comprehensives or pay for tutors.
Two brainy kids shouldn't be teaching children.
Three the better teachers might not teach or may not even be in the UK - good teachers can earn far more outside the UK.

If you think your school could be better why don't you do something about it rather than try to close other schools down and force other people to solve your problems?

Yanbu. So glad we didn't live in a grammar area. The madness about secondary schools when my dc were going was bad enough as it was.

Not necessarily. Where I grew up we had 4 comps in my town, varying between quite rubbish and so rubbish they tried to shut it down. No grammar schools.

By that logic, all areas which don't have grammars wood have good comprehensives, but I don't think that's true?

Im envious tbh we don't have any grammar schools, can't afford private and our local state school is dire.

What area are you?
We moved to Bucks 4 years ago, when youngest was just starting reception. We didn't even think about the 11+, we moved in the summer so had to take a place in whichever primary had a space, and thankfully lucked out as their school is absolutely amazing. It didnt occur to us to look at the secondaries when we were moving as our girls were 1 and 4. But we are now starting to think about secondaries as oldest is going into year 4 and some of her friends are starting 11+ tutoring in September. The local comps aren't the best and she really wants a girls only school as she finds the boys really disruptive to her learning. We couldn't afford independent with both, so grammar is her only option, but I don't want to tutor for her just to scrape in, as I think that would be really stressful for her.

It's such a dilemma isn't it. In many ways I think tutoring is wrong- the original idea was that grammar schools were to provide a private level education based on ability rather than parents income. Round us tutoring is at least £3.5k a year for 2 hours per week, which is out of the reach of some, and the competition for places will only get higher with the VAT on private school fees pushing more children towards grammar.

I feel your pain.

You're absolutely right that kids need tutoring/practice to pass - so much not covered in state schools (prep schools do cover it though) and year 6 Maths included too (even though the test is taken 3 weeks in to year 6). The suggested vocabulary is huge and the kids are advised to know the definition and synonyms/antonyms of each.

I can understand why DS might not have wanted a tutor BUT most kids react more favourably when asked to do something they don't want to do by an external adult. I just think it helps them to get the job done with less arguing.

If you can afford it, the Atom online system is good as it can be set to the test they're taking and the local authority, so all past papers are specific. Maybe he would react better to online study, so he can see his weaker areas and progression as he practices? They also have seminars throughout the summer on tricky topics.

You have my sympathy, OP. It's a really shitty process.

A lot of year 5 and year 6 parents talk a lot of crap about the next stage schools. Seriously, take it all with a giant pinch of salt. If parents around you condemn other schools as "the rubbish schools" as you mentioned in your OP, watch them all change their tune when that's the school their kids get into. Quietly visit these other schools and see for yourself, All schools have their strengths and weaknesses, even the sainted grammar.

He will be more likely to work for a tutor than a stressed parent. The tuition isn't wasted, often the other schools will use these tests as assessments in Year 7.

Kids at this stage (and parents!) are under a massive amount of pressure. It feels like it got worse in the last decade. How much research have these other parents actually done? How much condemnation of these other schools is just gleaned from the grapevine? And really it's very sad they say that as the kids are probably hearing this and it's demoralising for them. Most of this school chat is nonsense.

With so many kids chasing so few places, if he's struggling now, you have to face the fact that he might not get in. The eldest took to it but he's a different child.

And that isn't the end of the world. OP

At least 2/3rds of parents at one of our DC's primary said they were going private/Grammar How many actually did? Three. The majority went to the local feeder secondaries and did well. Ask your primary what percentage got into the Grammar and other schools for the last five years. There's your answer.

Prepare him and build his confidence so he doesn't feel like a failure if he doesn't get in. I'm betting that not all of his friends will either, whatever mum and dad are currently saying. And he will probably still socialise with them as they live locally, whilst making friends at the new school.

Focus instead on his eventual goals for after secondary school. Develop his outside interests as much as possible. Whatever school he gets, play to his strengths. There's also more than one route to uni or apprenticeships or other careers so keep an early weather eye out to keep track of what they are looking for. Often it's a broad range of demonstrable outside interests that help clinch the offer.

Six form Colleges often say they specialise in A levels and that age group and you'll find many kids from the Grammar and the secondaries gravitate there. Keep an eye open at least two years beforehand for application rules, they can change every year. Keep giving positive encouragement. He will get through school and beyond, whichever route he takes.

I've been told this before on Mumsnet, but in real life everyone calls the secondary school in town here the comp. What's the definition?

A comp takes all pupils in an area, of all abilities. A secondary modern takes all the children that didn't get into the grammar.

So in my situation there is one senior school in town. The grammar schools are in a nearby town / city. Is my senior school a comprehensive then.

@Curlewwoohoo "I've been told this before on Mumsnet, but in real life everyone calls the secondary school in town here the comp. What's the definition"

Your name looks as if you have manifested me to answer your question!
A comprehensive school takes all children who apply and who meet the entrance requirements and therefore has a cross section of all abilities and socioeconomic groups. A grammar school takes only the higher ability children and also usually the more privileged children and a significantly lower number of children with additional needs. This means that the school the non grammar school kids go to has a significantly different profile to a comprehensive in the same area.

Don’t be simple. How is Araminta going to slot seamlessly into brickwork when she’s had 3 years of Latin to everyone else’s bricklaying and construction?

You can live in a comp area with grammars out of area. If the definition of ‘comprehensive’ is a school where there are no alternatives at all, there are no comps. Because every area has alternatives, whether state selective or private.

Even if all grammars and all privates were outlawed there’d still be comps that are sought-after enough to attract wealthier parents buying into the catchment. Incredibly, some on MN persist in saying this doesn’t happen.

There also plenty of tutors, crammers, music lessons and edifying trips abroad paid for by better-off parents at schools of all types.

There is no nirvana of true, egalitarian and honest comprehensive education. It doesn’t exist.

@Curlewwoohoo "So in my situation there is one senior school in town. The grammar schools are in a nearby town / city. Is my senior school a comprehensive then"

It depends really. But probably not. A few kids going out of town to grammar school won't impact much on the non grammar school. But in an area like mine where 23% go to grammar, the impact will be huge and those schools will not be comprehesives.

@CurlewKate I've clocked you before on here, nice name! Curlews are my favourite bird. Not many left where I live. They're clinging on at a wildlife site adjacent to my town.

I don't like the grammar system! But like you I felt pressured to buy into it because there are quite a few in our area and they are the best schools. Having said that, although 3/4 DCs went to grammar school but DS16 hated it and moved to a non grammar. We were very unhappy with the quality of the science teaching so DH helped him at home, and he had extra maths lessons but he's predicted to get the top GCSE results in his year, possibly even on the school record. Luckily he was motivated despite disruptive behavior around him though.

I am all for streaming, sets, groups whatever you call teaching by ability, but not in separate schools and decided at one particular age.

I agree with this too

Two of my three dcs attended grammar school. If I had my time again I wouldn’t have entered any of them for the 11+, particularly since we had a great Catholic school in the area
Btw all three of my dc are at good universities and all achieved similar grades

Agree about the tutoring comment. My dad passed years ago but back then they were taught the 11+ exam content. Now they don't unless it's in some private schools. My eldest didn't want yo do tutoring afger a few months ans won't study for it. I'll still get him to sit it ( we have to opt out here) he will fail it but that is a lesson in itself I believe. If they have grammar schools then I think that the work should be offered to state primary...only private schools my way offer this so those at those fee painting schools already have an advantage. Sadly grammar schools are no longer for bright working class kids..

@Fordian no, the other school is not secondary modern

In our area there are circa 300 Grammar school places for well over 3000 that take the test. It makes up a tiny fraction of the kids moving up to secondary. Many of whom (my lad included) are more than bright enough to hold their own at grammar school if they wanted to, if their parents wanted to or if it was a logistical choice.

By logistics I mean the fact that my DD gets the bus at 7:30am, returned at gone 5pm and is over 10 miles from home. We are ok with this but some families that wouldn't necessarily work.

Top sets in a comp school are just as bright as any Grammar school. I've taught long enough to know that much is true.

Unless the kid is mega bright. I know one boy who had minimal tutoring by parents and got the top score in the region. He's probably the exception to the rule, but yes I do think lots of bright working class kids are missed.

Why do you have to be so rude? Does it make you feel big? You can reply without calling someone simple. I feel sorry for you, you must have such a misterable life.

The first 2 years of teaching in both types of school would be very similar, because every child needs a basic education. Virtually everything I learned in years 7 and 8 was useful in life. It is in years 9 onwards, that the curriculum becomes too academic for a lot of practical kids and it puts them off and they just drop out.