F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

[StressyStressHead]

DS1 passed and is at a grammar. DS2 is due to sit it in September and prep is not going well.

DS1 had a tutor in yr 5 just for an hour a week and was very enthusiastic as he enjoys that sort of thing. DS2 didn’t want a tutor (fine - i always said I would never force anything on either child) so has been doing prep with me. Just an hour a week. Sometimes sessions go well - often, they don’t. He often has meltdowns if he gets something wrong, and wants to give up and it is so bloody hard to deal with.

ImI don’t care whether my kids go to a grammar or not but the issue is, the non-grammars in our area are not great so if you want a chance at a good school, you’ve no choice but to do the test.

Without sounding like an arse, for those who are bound to make comments like “children shouldn’t need tutoring to pass the test” “why would you put your child under that much pressure”, please understand that:

a) despite what the local authorities will tell you, the 11+ tests kids on lots of things they have NOT learnt in school so to expect them to sit it with no prep is unrealistic

b) competition is ridiculous - kids from miles outside our area sit the test and apply for our local grammars. They have MASSIVE amounts of tutoring which pushes up the pass mark (there’s no set pass mark, it’s based on how the cohort performs that year)

c) believe me, I am doing my utmost not to pressure him but he needs to do some practice - he’s worried all his friends will pass and go to grammar without him - and he’s probably right as so many of them are doing summer 11+ courses and hours of tuition

d) some friends who don’t live in a grammar area have said to me that if he doesn’t want to do the prep, just to tell him fine, that’s his decision but it’s down to him if he ends up at a rubbish school - which seems bloody harsh for a 10 year old!!

I keep telling him this does not define him, it simply gives him a wider choice of schools but I know he’ll feel a failure if he doesn’t pass.

Not sure what my AIBU is, just need to vent.

11+ exams do have an age standardisation process, it's true, but I think what @fliptopbin was referring to was DCs who mature at GCSE, A level or even degree age rather than a few months after taking the 11+.

Research shows that the effect of summer birthdates has a longer and more pronounced impact than previously thought, possibly even up to the age of 16.

Plenty of hairdressers training here! I suspect that career isn’t what grammar parents have in mind. All this training is via apprenticeships and the local FE college. Those that don’t go
to uni are not unemployed!

As we can all see, late bloomers can catch up. Would they like the faster pace of the grammar at 11, maybe not.

Bucks is what it is. It’s Conservstives and has grammars. The other schools are mostly good. Some have 30% high achievers in them so of course they do well! There isn’t any difference between them and the lower 30% at the grammars.

Bucks grammars have no spaces at 12 or 13. Very rare now. 6th forms recruit. However I’ve not seen large numbers leaving the secondaries. If you are at Waddesdon, why would you leave? The secondaries do provide a good education. These days ex private dc go to grammar 6th forms. Saves on fees.

I was an 11+ tutor for a while and my experience of the 11+ is your child is either going to qualify or not and there's not a lot you can do about it.

A good 70% of the pupils who walked into the tuition centre where I worked were always going to pass. They would probably have passed if they'd had no tuition at all. A few practise tests would have been sufficient to make sure they had the exam technique down and knew how best to use the limited time they have in the test.

About 20% were never going to pass, and no amount of extra sessions, intensive summer courses and homework was going to get them there. Even if they had passed by some fluke, they wouldn't have coped at Grammar School. I always did my very best for them but you can't force it if it's not there.

The only ones we really made a difference to were the 10% of borderline kids who we may have just nudged over the pass mark by a point or two.

It sounds like, as lovely as your DS probably is, it's just not right for him. He will find his place at a local secondary, they can't possibly all be as terrible as you say and after all the vast majority of children do not get into Grammar.

If competition is so fierce and very few get in, lots of these children will ‘end up’ at local comps anyway. Your DS is not bound to be in a low attainment potential cohort.

I can understand your situation and it’s one reason why I disagree with the 11+, even more so nowadays. Too much tutoring, that the organically smart kid from a background who hasn’t been tutored doesn’t get in.

Which region are you talking about? County grammars? Never heard about any tutoring centre with the 70 perc pass here in London full of super dooper selective schools where there is 12 candidates per place

I've not read the whole thread, but I completely understand that you want the best education for your child. I was fortunate that we had a decent comprehensive school near by, I had to fight to get my son in. Ironically it went into special measures when he was in year 10. However he got an interview at Oxford he didn't get in but was accepted at another brilliant university and loved every minute. He's 30 now not earning millions but is enjoying his career and life. However I have a very lazzzie fairer attitude to life and believe you cannot force someone to do something.

Does he actually want to go to a grammar? If he is struggling with prep then maybe he isn't suited.

My parents thought they were giving me the same opportunities as my older brother, but in truth I was forced to do things my brother had chosen to do and we are very different people.

Have a closer look at the comps in your area, them generally might be not so good but they can often have great support.

I taught a girl in VI form who on paper was a failure from a crap comp. In reality she had arrived in the UK 2 years before her GCSEs, had completed 11 but only got a D in English, hence being a 'failure' but you don't go from no English to 10 passes at GCSE without support.

We don’t have 11+ where we live… I find it bonkers that some still do. We have state schools and private schools and if you are going to state you go to your closest one, if it’s a but shit you try and get into a different one. You do your SATs but they mean shit all, you do classes as a form for your first term in year 7 and then get out in sets according to ability after Christmas when your teachers get to know you.

I know that’s not helpful, I just always thought 11+ was an archaic thing of the past and honestly I’m astonished it’s still around.

It was in South Bucks. Idk what it's like in London but there weren't many parents who were going to send their child to tuition at the crazy prices it cost unless they had good reason to think they were going to pass and going to do well at Grammar School.

I also think its archaic.

Know family members who have gone independent for primary, plus top up of tutors for the 11+, got in a grammar miles from where they live and are treating it like a ‘free private’.

Bonkers and in no way is what it was designed for (if you even agreed with that).

South Bucks is the grammar county and around 25 perc of local kids are accepted at grammar schools. No wonder the success rate of the tutoring course is 70 perc. Here the grammar schools take less than 1 perc of the local population of the kids

...OK? I wasn't advertising the centre as having an especially high pass rate, just giving my experience. The proportions are irrelevant really. The point I was making really is that tuition only goes so far and that mostly children are either in that top 25%, or 10%, or 1%, or they're not, and tuition can only have a moderate influence on marginal students.

For example, the vocabulary quiz that is sometimes in the Verbal Reasoning section. Tuition centres will give out weekly word lists and then test them the next week. This way, students will maybe learn another 10 words a week, which could add up to 370 words over a 37 week course in an academic year (provided they actually do the homework which not all do). Considering there are 100,000 words in the English language, the chances of any of those 370 words turning up in the exam are miniscule. The children who do well in that section are children who have been reading a lot from Reception age and are very good at absorbing language, not the children that were spoon-fed a few words a week in a tuition centre.

Then there's the NVR section, tuition centres can teach a few tricks for how to methodically work out the next picture in a sequence or matching a net to a 3D shape but given the extremely tight time limits on the test, students are really going to either have the kind of brain which is able to quickly visualise the object or spot the pattern, or they aren't, and they don't have time to put step-by-step strategies into action for every one of maybe 20+ problems.

That's not to say that 11+ tuition, if you can afford it, isn't useful- it's generally good fun, the centre I worked at had a huge emphasis on confidence, wellbeing and self-esteem, and even if you don't then qualify for grammar school you've learned something which will help you out at secondary school- but it can't work miracles.

@ MrsSunshine2b I know what the 11+ exam looks like. Neither I was suspecting you to advertise it. :) I was merely surprised at the acceptance percentage rate . But since you said South Bucks I am not surprised as it is grammar county.

11+ tutoring uses the same methods all over England. Nothing unusual. But not all regions are so fortunate with the number of grammar schools around. Here in London we have superselective grammars only and similar private. Yes there are some less selective private schools too. There the likelihood of getting in is higher

Just wishing you and your DC the best OP.
We're about to start the tutor journey with DC2 (DC1 at the local grammar school). I have similar feelings about some of the comps in the area.

At this late stage, I would focus on the subject he's not as strong on and exam technique as I am assuming the test is in a couple of weeks.

I am also not keen on 11+ but that is the area we live in. I thought Labour might get rid of them but they seem to concentrating on private schools at the moment.

Thanks @Pipsquiggle - yes it’s in a couple of weeks - can’t wait for it to be over!

@StressyStressHead I wouldn't worry about it.

I refused to even take my 11+ and opted for the local crappy comp. I had a mostly great time at school and came out with almost straight A grades at GCSE.

My school wasn't the most academic but it was very good for sports, practical subjects like DT, music etc...

@StressyStressHead

PS - we did find the 10 minute test CGP books helpful in the final run up to the exam

@StressyStressHead I think you are in the same area as me maybe.... exam on the 16th?

I'm so over it....

@troppibambini6 no, w/c 9 Sept. We’re in Bexley.

@StressyStressHead how did it go in the end?

I sympathise, OP. I had one academic and one non-academic child. The grammar school was perfect for one, but wouldn't have suited the other.

It can seem a brutal system but one of the high schools in our grammar-school area had an excellent approach. The head understood that many children will not pass the 11+ for a range of reasons: late developers, anxious in exams etc etc and made sure that they had a top band for those who'd just failed to reach the pass mark. The head ensured that these children got all the opportunities they'd have had in the grammar school (and the option to move across in future years - but that was rarely taken up). I think this is really important. I suppose the only thing they'd miss out on would be the 'grammar school' atmosphere.

My daughter was slightly dyslexic and didn't shine at primary school but something clicked into place at age 13/14 and she just flew. And it's so important that the opportunities are there for that kind of child.

You clearly have absolutely no idea how corporate recruitment works. I would never even look at what secondary school an interviewee went to, and even if I did "King Edward VI" would be completely meaningless to me. Most of the top accountancy firms use CV blind recruitment where the school and university a candidate went to is redacted from the CV to avoid bias.

He didn’t pass. But I’m weirdly relieved as I’ve come to realise that grammar is just not for him - and he feels that way too. Trying to focus on the positives of the local comps and hope that he has a good experience wherever he ends up going.

Good for you, I’m sure it’ll all work out. We’re in a grammar area too and it’s such an unnecessary strain.

This is absolutely the right attitude - the focus has to be on the right school for the child, not the supposed 'best' school in the area.

He should be so proud of himself either way - prepping for the test is a lot of work and, let's face it, a lot of stress (for parents, too!)! He's also well set up now to do really well in his SATs, which will likely mean being in the top couple of sets for Maths/English/Science at secondary, so he can fly wherever he goes.

Well done, Mum. It sounds like you're dealing with this brilliantly, as is DS.x.