F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

[StressyStressHead]

DS1 passed and is at a grammar. DS2 is due to sit it in September and prep is not going well.

DS1 had a tutor in yr 5 just for an hour a week and was very enthusiastic as he enjoys that sort of thing. DS2 didn’t want a tutor (fine - i always said I would never force anything on either child) so has been doing prep with me. Just an hour a week. Sometimes sessions go well - often, they don’t. He often has meltdowns if he gets something wrong, and wants to give up and it is so bloody hard to deal with.

ImI don’t care whether my kids go to a grammar or not but the issue is, the non-grammars in our area are not great so if you want a chance at a good school, you’ve no choice but to do the test.

Without sounding like an arse, for those who are bound to make comments like “children shouldn’t need tutoring to pass the test” “why would you put your child under that much pressure”, please understand that:

a) despite what the local authorities will tell you, the 11+ tests kids on lots of things they have NOT learnt in school so to expect them to sit it with no prep is unrealistic

b) competition is ridiculous - kids from miles outside our area sit the test and apply for our local grammars. They have MASSIVE amounts of tutoring which pushes up the pass mark (there’s no set pass mark, it’s based on how the cohort performs that year)

c) believe me, I am doing my utmost not to pressure him but he needs to do some practice - he’s worried all his friends will pass and go to grammar without him - and he’s probably right as so many of them are doing summer 11+ courses and hours of tuition

d) some friends who don’t live in a grammar area have said to me that if he doesn’t want to do the prep, just to tell him fine, that’s his decision but it’s down to him if he ends up at a rubbish school - which seems bloody harsh for a 10 year old!!

I keep telling him this does not define him, it simply gives him a wider choice of schools but I know he’ll feel a failure if he doesn’t pass.

Not sure what my AIBU is, just need to vent.

Your argument is illogical. If MFL is so 'bloody difficult', how do the people getting in with lower A levels cope with the rigour of the course?

Because not all degrees are equal am afraid!

I question the credibility of posters who have never been anywhere near a MFL degree course but claim to have some inside track on how challenging it is or isn't. There are some MFL courses that don't even touch on literature. Speaking and immersing yourself in a language can mean that you can do a degree in it in many cases. If that was not the case, why do so many bilingual DC go on to do degrees in MFL? Unless you think that their parents are reading them Sartre and De Beauvoir rather than fairy stories?

Interesting. Never seen that on MN before.

Thank you.

Hmm... Perhaps because some of us have actually completed not one, but two master's degrees, including one in the humanities, and are conversing with you in a language that isn’t our native tongue?

It's not uncommon to be educated these days. Maybe it was 60 years ago, but those days are long past. Higher education has depreciated over time. I am not sure what you are rationalising but studing Germanic, Romance philology is quite widespread :/

I'm also with @StressyStressHead too. We moved when oldest was 4 and youngest was 1. We were getting threats from our neighbours so felt an urgency to move quickly, and our main priorities were a safe rural area that was still commutable in under an hour to my work in West London zone 3, the only area that really fitted that bill was Buckinghamshire. I was sleep deprived with a 1 year old who had health issues. Looking at secondaries was not top of my list at that point. The girls are now 5 and 8 and go to a fabulous state primary, I honestly couldn't imagine a primary that could be better for them. The suggestions to move if don't like grammar concept are beyond ridiculous. My girls are 3 school years apart, for apply for secondaries we would have to move by time oldest starting year 6. So she would move schools for 1 year and oldest would miss 4 years in a fabulous primary to move to an unknown school, just to tick a moral box. Plus the fact we care for MIL who moved close to us 2 years ago.

@StressyStressHead

Can you not withdraw him from the exam? If you do that then he can sit the 13+ entry test for grammars which is a CAT test (cognitive aptitude test) and much less specific and more a test of how well he is doing in English/Maths. It would give your DS2 time to mature a bit and take the pressure off.

@Bushmillsbabe As a fellow Bucks resident, you can indeed find great primaries here. As you probably know, it’s best to try and keep a level head over the 11 plus. You can withdraw from it. I withdrew DD2. Some dc are enthusiastic about learning and others less so. I’ve seen some dc almost abused by incessant pressure with 11 plus tutoring and parental angst. It’s horrible to see. Not all the secondaries are great (most are) but it’s not worth getting to high stress levels over it. Dc still have chances in life. They don’t disappear in the September of y6. So many dc do amazingly well in non grammars and those that do usually have parents who have stayed calm and supported dc. Of course lots of people moving here don’t think about every nuance of educational provision.

Thank you.
I will probably still encourage (but not force) my oldest to take the 11+, but emphasise that just needs to do her best and if doesn't get in that's fine. I agree there can be too much focus/pressure on it. We looked at tutoring for year 4 but it clashed with an extra curricular sport club which she is excelling in, and to take her away from something she loves and is doing well at to chase a possible grammar place didn't seem to be the right thing for her. Will look at it again for year 5 as she has strongly expressed a preference for an all girls school which would be a grammer as we can't afford independent for both children.

I attended a terribly performing comp and came out with top grades and loved my time at school, as you said a strong work ethic and supportive parents will get children further than a grammar without these things.

@Coldfinch "Can you not withdraw him from the exam? If you do that then he can sit the 13+ entry test for grammars"

I don't know if this an option in some areas. It's certainly not in ours. People would be
wise to check.

I think you should try to get him to have a tutor. Explain it us much easier if it isn’t your own mum teaching you.

As the competition is so high, doesn’t that mean that lots of children like your DS ( if he doesn’t get through) will be going to a reasonable local school? Are they truly all very bad?

Yet another parent whose choice is between the only good grammar and ‘shit’ schools. It’s bizarre how many there seem to be…

Send your child to a normal school, get them tutors if they need it for weaker subjects, encourage them to read. Help with homework, make sure they have a hobby or sport they like.
They’ll be fine.
You the one setting them up to feel like a failure at 10 years old. Not the system.

If the competition is high, and it’s an academically selective school and your child isn’t academic then perhaps you’re already being unrealistic about what he can achieve - the 11+ isn’t that difficult.

@WeAreManyUArefew "Yet another parent whose choice is between the only good grammar and ‘shit’ schools. It’s bizarre how many there seem to be…"
Indeed. However, if you look at a secondary school in a grammar area, and you don't look too closely, you're probably going to think "shit" because you're not comparing like with like.

@Bushmillsbabe Many neighbours dc have gone to the secondary near me that’s not the grammar. I can honestly say their educational outcomes are no different from many who went to the grammars.They were all decent DC who were not geniuses! All have all gone to uni and 2 to Nottingham and Exeter. However the over tutored upset DC both bombed. Neither went to uni. It’s also the case that not all the grammar dc are very bright. These are not super selective grammars. I would say for DD not to get fixated on the girls’ grammar. I know they are brilliant schools in south Bucks (?) but if you cannot afford private, don’t go down the route of dismissing the secondary and being rude about it, Angst lies in that direction. You know how DD is shaping up at primary. Take it from there. My DD preferred her hobbies too! Let them be children.

At the risk of repeating myself, my experience also tallies with what @CurlewKate and @TizerorFizz are saying – I had one at a secondary modern who did the same subjects as her sibling at a grammar who was one year older. Got similar grades too.

We had numerous 'friends' telling us that they would avoid her school like the plague and she wouldn't do well academically there. As it happened, her entire friendship group (of 8) went to university and 3 of them have Masters, DD's is particularly impressive. Just as importantly – for me at least – 6 years after leaving school, they have all just been abroad together on holday.

Yes, we are south bucks. Our catchmented comp isn't great, but the one just outside our area is brilliant.

She is more fixated on having a girls school than going to a grammer, I think partly as all the girls in her class are lovely, and about half the boys are quite disruptive, so she is thinking she will find it easier to study in a girls school. She has a mild hearing impairment so does struggle when the boys are loud as if she wears her aid it amplifies their noise and if she doesn't she struggles to hear the teacher. And that's in a lovely small class of 20, so we do think she might struggle a bit more in the larger secondaries. We are not so focused on her grades as her enjoying school and she does get really frustrated with 'the noisy boys'. If we could afford independent I think we would go for that for the smaller class sizes rather than any aspiration to acheive top grades

It's a difficult balance isn't it.

@Bushmillsbabe The days of single sex secondaries have gone here. There were several. Now just some grammars. I would try and relax as @thing47 says but I hear you about some boys. You will just have to try your best.

Bushmillsbabe, l also have neighbours in South Bucks whose children have done well after 'failing ' at age 10. That's why it is such a ridiculous system and not the right way to treat young children. Many go into Grammar school sixth forms later which surely shows the selection at 10 is faulty.
Just down the road, in the next county, is a proper large comprehensive school which has served friends children very well indeed without 11+ stress. But l suppose those that support the system in Buckinghamshire must think it works better.
It would be interesting to see what all these children are doing say 10years after they have left education.

There are no "catchment comps " in South Buckinghamshire.

And that's in a lovely small class of 20, so we do think she might struggle a bit more in the larger secondaries.

The 2 all-girls grammar schools in South Bucks with which I am familiar have the same size classes as the secondary modern that DD attended (as do the 3 all-boys grammars and the mixed grammar in the area). The classes aren't going to be smaller because they don't have boys, they're just going to have more girls in them instead!

Thinking of people that I know who are currently in grammars:

3 families with 2 girls (eldest girls all gone to girls grammar then second Dds one at girls grammar, one private (wasn’t going to pass the 11+, one comp (wasn’t going to pass the 11+)

All the other families I know with DC who are girls & boys went for mixed grammars. I know boys can be boisterous but I do think they get a bit of a bad press - ok my sample is small - but it seems there are families with girls only who would prefer to avoid them completely!

All children are sweeter & more carefree when at primary. Once you get to secondary school no matter which setting teenage problems occur - a friend with a son at mixed grammar said the bullying has been rife, one of the aforementioned girls at the grammar school has multiple friends with eating disorders. They are difficult years to navigate whichever school setting they end up in & yes some schools may get better exam results but it doesn’t always equate with happier children.

@Frankley in many ways I wish we hadn't moved into a grammer area, it just wasn't something we thought about as girls were 1 and 4 when we moved. But now we are stuck with it as moving isn't a realistic option for us for several reasons. I agree that 10 is so young to be putting so much pressure on them.

@Sunshineonararainydayyy the push for all girls definitely isn't coming from us, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea s its not real life, but I do understand DD's reasons for wanting it. She has lots of good friends who are boys, does lots of mixed sporting activities, she and us have nothing at all against boys. But she just feels she will learn better in an all girls school. I guess it's whether we support her in her choices or try to make the choice for her.

The big issue I have with grammar schools is that some children are late bloomers. Both myself, my brother and my son were considered pretty middling at age 10, but then went on to get top grades later on. I doubt any of us would have passed the 11 plus, but we were just late developers. We are all summer birthdays as well.

I think they account for that in the 11+ - scores are adjusted to account for month of birth. So a summer born would need to get slightly less questions correct than an autumn born to get the same overall score.

There are many stories people tell themselves about the 11+. Many of them untrue, or contradictory or both.
"They can always move at 13+ if they've been miscategorised at 10" Not true-13+ barely exists. And even if it did, you've been in a school which, quite rightly, goes at a slower pace and sometimes doing fewer subjects you're unlikely to be in a position to jump into a grammar school at 13.

"It's just separating the academic children from the practical ones" Two points here, how can you tell at 10? And even if you could, the complete devaluation of non academic qualifications by Conservative governments and by many parents have meant that the BTecs in Construction, Catering, Hair and Beauty and other practical subjects have all but vanished too.

I could go on-but I won't.