F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

[StressyStressHead]

DS1 passed and is at a grammar. DS2 is due to sit it in September and prep is not going well.

DS1 had a tutor in yr 5 just for an hour a week and was very enthusiastic as he enjoys that sort of thing. DS2 didn’t want a tutor (fine - i always said I would never force anything on either child) so has been doing prep with me. Just an hour a week. Sometimes sessions go well - often, they don’t. He often has meltdowns if he gets something wrong, and wants to give up and it is so bloody hard to deal with.

ImI don’t care whether my kids go to a grammar or not but the issue is, the non-grammars in our area are not great so if you want a chance at a good school, you’ve no choice but to do the test.

Without sounding like an arse, for those who are bound to make comments like “children shouldn’t need tutoring to pass the test” “why would you put your child under that much pressure”, please understand that:

a) despite what the local authorities will tell you, the 11+ tests kids on lots of things they have NOT learnt in school so to expect them to sit it with no prep is unrealistic

b) competition is ridiculous - kids from miles outside our area sit the test and apply for our local grammars. They have MASSIVE amounts of tutoring which pushes up the pass mark (there’s no set pass mark, it’s based on how the cohort performs that year)

c) believe me, I am doing my utmost not to pressure him but he needs to do some practice - he’s worried all his friends will pass and go to grammar without him - and he’s probably right as so many of them are doing summer 11+ courses and hours of tuition

d) some friends who don’t live in a grammar area have said to me that if he doesn’t want to do the prep, just to tell him fine, that’s his decision but it’s down to him if he ends up at a rubbish school - which seems bloody harsh for a 10 year old!!

I keep telling him this does not define him, it simply gives him a wider choice of schools but I know he’ll feel a failure if he doesn’t pass.

Not sure what my AIBU is, just need to vent.

What is “not great”, Requires Improvement, Special Measures? If so I can see your reluctance.

I live in a grammar school area. They are all very different. The discipline ranges widely and all issues that plague teenagers are common. ALL.
Some ofsted reports suggest the teachers do not put as much effort as the kids are already bright. If you are invested in your child , it is possible they will thrive in the not so great comp. Keep going with the prep but don't stress. When you are not stressed about the result , he will not be either.

Exactly. I was a forces child and when my dad left the forces I went to the local secondary modern. I was at least a year ahead of my peers, and even the teachers said “yes we know you know the answer” when I put my hand up. Soon learned to shut up, got bored and became disruptive. Parents realised fairly swiftly and put me in an independent school where I flourished. Bright kids do not raise standards if the other kids don’t want to learn.

I’m in a grammar area. Not many children will pass without studying. My first child was off by a couple of marks but after some movement on the reserve list got a place - I felt like I’d won the jackpot!
Fast forward wasn’t coping and had fallen in with a dubious crowd. Self harm and mental health problems were rife due to the pressure and further down the line we got a late diagnosis of ASD. Most grammars are ill equipped to teach neurodiverse kids. It was pretty much a nightmare.
Second child (boy) passed he had a late diagnosis of ADHD and although it hasn’t been an easy ride the school has been the making of him. That said he is robust, another child may not have coped.
My third child wasn’t getting on with lessons at all and melt downs were happening. Cancelled the lessons and he’s doing relatively well at his (second) non- grammar.
Many of my children’s friends who didn’t go to grammar work hard and enter grammar school at the A- level stage. Often surpassing children who were there the whole time. In any event things tend to level out. If your child works hard they will be okay regardless. Not every child peaks at age 11!!!!

I hate the 11+ system too. (We were fortunate that it suited our kids at that age, but no doubt about it, it is a blunt and brutal sorting tool at a very tender age).

A number of my closest peers did not pass the 11+ and have done as well, if not better, than those who passed way back when. Resilience, common sense and the ability to get on with all and sundry are very under rated in academia, but are cracking life skills and they have them in spades.

Ideally we should have a system that sorts according to learning style - be it academic or more practical. There should be the ability to switch between the two and a pride in both.

Since we are stuck with existing system and your DS doesnt enjoy tutoring, why not concentrate on just really useful learning that will stand him in good stead regardless - times tables/vocab etc test&correct mistakes by repetition whilst undertaking physical challenges eg run up & down the kitchen, or do skipping, throwing & catching, star jumps, trampoline etc shouting out the answers while trying to hit the target number of runs/jumps/bounces etc. If nothing else, it's a laugh, our kids seemed to remember it better and gets it over with quicker because they are keen to make a start.

All very best to you both.

I’m of the opinion a clever child who wants to do well will do well
anywhere in the uk system with supportive parents. Most teachings will be reinforced from home throughout the academic years. I was once told one of the most important things for children was to have a family meal together. Children need to be selective of their friend choices…

sometimes, some of the most wayward children are in grammar schools.

I feel like your child isn’t too bothered in academics atm and would struggle to keep up in a grammar and May fall further behind when he is there and possibly in with the wrong crowd. If you are struggling to teach him you definitely need to get a tutor as you are possibly making things harder for him. Maybe if he gets a good tutor who has a fun teaching style this might be the key.

the transfer test is an elite test and should be scrapped. If parents want an elite education they should pay for private and let public school children be mixed levels.

"clever child who wants to do well will do well" simply isn't true if that child gets bullied for doing well or is in a class with constant disruption. Many bright kids do Ok but not their full potential. If a teacher is dealing with disruptions or concentrating on ensuring the bottom half of the class have understood the lesson then how can they stretch the top pupils in that class?

I've tutored 100s of kids for 11+ and ultra-competitive private school entrance exams, and I do think that often tutors are needed not because they explain concepts any better but because the parent/child relationship comes with much more baggage than the tutor/parent one. But I also think sometimes exam performance comes down to emotional state and psychology as much as ability, so de-escalating the emotions around the prep could really help.

One thing I've done with students who are not enjoying 11+ preparation is to move away from the books/practice papers, and focus on the skills in another context. For example - reading bits of non-fiction texts like newspapers or Bill Bryson books or the New Scientist together (obviously preselect these so the level of challenge is appropriate), asking the student to guess what a word means, or why the author has chosen a word or what the student thinks they are trying to say. It can be trickier for maths but you can improve fluency and confidence by challenging each other to multiple two digit numbers together mentally at the kitchen table, reading graphs/charts in The Economist or FT, guessing the probability it's going to rain based on the sky. If there's resistance to "11+" work, try GCSE questions for (it sounds crazy but if you filter by grade on maths genie, the grade 1 is KS2 stuff, and it can be a confidence boost when you tell them they're already doing GCSE work!)

Of course this alone might not be enough, but these type of activities could help you keep up the academic momentum without making sitting down and tutoring feel like a chore. It could act as a bit of a reset, or act as a middle ground between doing nothing and keeping going as you currently are.

Exactly this. Areas where there are grammar schools typically have worse comprehensive schools. The grammars 'cream off' the top students (or the students with the pushier parents!). Grammar schools therefore serve to widen the gap more.

Most of the work will be done outside school not in the classroom, therefore a clever child will do well if the curriculum is delivered. Secondary level - the student has to be interested in learning themselves. Most of these top students are getting extra tuition when it comes to the GCSE/a level.
I studied all science alevels with top marks in a comprehensive school and the work was done at home and with extra tuition and it was a lot of work.. There was distractions in the group and I’m sure this happens in grammar too. The majority of students going to grammar will be average. And there will also be a lot of distractions there as the kids grow up..bullying, social media, phones, drugs and smoking is not just in comprehensive. The parents need have an extremely important role in how their children turn out and what they achieve.

The majority of students going to grammar school are not average. This is particularly untrue of students in super selective grammars. They wouldn't get into the schools if they were anywhere near average. There are no more distractions in grammar than in your average private school. Do you have any direct experience of grammars?

Exactly this. You are the parent. You get to decide. It’s only 5 weeks of his life. The incentive is that if he passes he’ll get to be with his mates. Just make it non-negotiable. Hire a tutor three times per week - get the best one you can find. The test examines how well they can take tests. They need to be VERY familiar with the test format. Has little to do with intelligence.

How do you know that kids from outside the area are receiving massive amounts of tutoring?

of course I have experience of grammar. There’s no way every student in a grammar school goes on to study law and medicine. I think you’ll find a lot go on for average degrees ie nursing teaching , business, geography, politics which are not top qualifications, these can be achieved also in a comprehensive school. Yes a grammar will have higher percentage going to third level but not all these students perform on a top level i.e. straight A*/A.

I think you should encourage your son to go to a tutor and to up the sessions to perhaps 2-3hours a week as it’s the holidays and it’s quite late in the day now. 11+ tests are a load of nonsense if you ask me - both my sister and I failed them because we didn’t get tutored, then got tutors, took the test again the next year and got into the local grammar. We were intelligent kids and ended up getting all As/A*s at the grammar, going to good unis, etc., but the fact we hadn’t been primed for the test the first time round meant we were always going to fail it. Local comprehensive was awful - I just remember the shock of the bullying, disruptive classes where the teacher couldn’t teach us anything because one or two really naughty kids just didn’t want to behave. Exhausted teachers and low expectations of the kids was my experience (though I conceded this won’t be true in all comps). I still remember the surprise I felt when the 11 year-old boy I sat next to in assembly opened his blazer jacket to show me a packet of cigarettes and offered me one!

Although I don’t agree with the pressure kids such as myself and your sons are put under, that is the state of the secondary school system and rather than put him through all that potential upset of going to a bad comprehensive, perhaps you need to sit him down and explain that although he may not like tutoring, taking the test, etc., it’s important to do so he can go to a good school and be in a more supportive learning environment, and stay with his friends.

If you have time maybe trial a tutor even though they say they don't want one.

@surreygirl1987 Where I live the whole county has a grammar system. It’s true most of those are outstanding schools and most of the non grammars are good, however it’s not true to say the non grammars (not comps for obvious reasons) are poor. They absolutely are not, A few aren’t the best but many parents I’ve known have been very happy with their secondary schools. Plus dc going to these schools go to uni and achieve very well. They aren’t ignored because they matter to the schools. Their results matter. Many non grammars get over 30% higher ability dc so expectations are high. Most parents (unless they are wholly unreasonable) realise dc who haven’t passed for the grammars can do just as well at a secondary and are relaxed about it.

Children in grammar schools are self motivated. They generally don't need to be pushed to study. The children who are getting the lower grades are the children who passed the test but are unable to continue without constant tuition. My daughter observed it in her lower years and they have struggled.
My daughter has had no tuition and was able to obtain grade 9 across all her subjects in her GCSEs last year. That was through studying very hard and sacrificing her leisure time,but not all the time.
Grammar school environment is very different from comprehensive schools other than the academia . It's very difficult to describe but children utilise their spare time very differently and what matters to them other than the usual teenage crap is different.

1. Can you quote where I said the comps in grammar areas are 'poor' or that anyone is 'ignored"?
2. There is a lot of research to back up precisely what I've just said (some of it written by me 😁)

What youve said already annoys me and I have 9 years until I may (or may not) deal with this. The competition sounds hideous, kids from outside the area applying so unfair, the fact the more money you have the more you can tutor your kids. I’m former grammar and I have to say I think if grammars didn’t exist it may be far fairer…

There’s been a flip where I am where the incredibly poor comps are now being pulled up by the kids who traditionally would have got in to grammar.
however, the reputation sticks and you get faces pulled when you say where your kids are going and have to justify it.

And you don’t think one single test when they are ten to determine if they are like that or not is an issue?

It’s been 30 years since I left school, but I did the 11+ and passed it. No prep done.

Despite passing, I still wasn’t able to get a place at the grammar school as places were limited and I lived further away than other kids. And to add insult to injury, I ended up with a place at my mom’s second choice of comprehensive school, which she wasn’t happy about (she even appealed).

However, I still did very well at school. I was in the top sets for all core subjects, did well in my GCSE’s and have done ok for myself in life. So in the grand scheme of things it wasn’t the end of the world.

@Isseywith3witchycats OK so I don't do this as a rule and I know you must not care rather than not know, but doesn't it even give you slight twitches when you spell I as i and write with zero punctuation? Especially when saying how easy you found grammar school work?

OP, don't suppose there are religious secondaries you could consider? I'm sure not everyone in them will be religious and many of them are great. Isn't he sitting the tests in a few weeks? TBH I think it's too late to do anything if so. I'd give him some exam tips rather than concentrating too much on content. Mine would be:

1. Read questions carefully to the very end, and underline key instructions.

2. Jot workings for interim stages of multi step maths problems and/or draw the Q as a diagram.

3. Move on if you're stuck after 15-20 secs thinking time, mark the Q clearly to flag it as unfinished, and come back later. Often, answering other Qs will give inspiration.

4. Answer every question.

5. Start with the Qs you like best.

6. In VR and NVR papers, flick your eyes over the other choices and especially if there's a very similar option as an answer, identify why it ISN'T that. Sometimes there'll be a really subtle thing that's been missed.

Good luck to him but honestly I reckon a lot of the 'failures' will be messing up due to rushing, not reading things carefully or not paying attention. My DS told me that a child had not listened carefully to the instructions and had missed a whole section of a paper; when the end came he piped up 'should I start this now?' - probably shafted his whole attempt.

And although not 11+, when marking assessments in the school where I work I can tell you it's insane the number of children who do things like find the biggest number, rather than find the biggest EVEN number, which is what's been asked for, because they've read 'Find the biggest...' and not carried on to the end of the sentence, even though 'even' is in caps and bold!

Well done you, I agree with you.

Maybe if more parents sent their kids to these local schools , the reputation would change and we would have a mix of levels.
I have one brother who went to comp- he was average in academic and another brother who went to grammar who was top of the class gifted. It was actually the brother that went to the comp that did better after third level. He had much more confidence , and belief in himself and he is now acting CEO of a big company. The other brother who is gifted did well too but he was lacking on confidence.
Education is very important but so are social skills, confidence , communication skills. I’m hoping to get my children to a well rounded education setting .

Family dynamics are extremely important in a child’s development.