F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

[StressyStressHead]

DS1 passed and is at a grammar. DS2 is due to sit it in September and prep is not going well.

DS1 had a tutor in yr 5 just for an hour a week and was very enthusiastic as he enjoys that sort of thing. DS2 didn’t want a tutor (fine - i always said I would never force anything on either child) so has been doing prep with me. Just an hour a week. Sometimes sessions go well - often, they don’t. He often has meltdowns if he gets something wrong, and wants to give up and it is so bloody hard to deal with.

ImI don’t care whether my kids go to a grammar or not but the issue is, the non-grammars in our area are not great so if you want a chance at a good school, you’ve no choice but to do the test.

Without sounding like an arse, for those who are bound to make comments like “children shouldn’t need tutoring to pass the test” “why would you put your child under that much pressure”, please understand that:

a) despite what the local authorities will tell you, the 11+ tests kids on lots of things they have NOT learnt in school so to expect them to sit it with no prep is unrealistic

b) competition is ridiculous - kids from miles outside our area sit the test and apply for our local grammars. They have MASSIVE amounts of tutoring which pushes up the pass mark (there’s no set pass mark, it’s based on how the cohort performs that year)

c) believe me, I am doing my utmost not to pressure him but he needs to do some practice - he’s worried all his friends will pass and go to grammar without him - and he’s probably right as so many of them are doing summer 11+ courses and hours of tuition

d) some friends who don’t live in a grammar area have said to me that if he doesn’t want to do the prep, just to tell him fine, that’s his decision but it’s down to him if he ends up at a rubbish school - which seems bloody harsh for a 10 year old!!

I keep telling him this does not define him, it simply gives him a wider choice of schools but I know he’ll feel a failure if he doesn’t pass.

Not sure what my AIBU is, just need to vent.

If they aren't going to pass its really not worth forcing them to be miserable in the lowest sets.the anxiety and stress put on those kids is horrible and usually purely for the parents. You knew this when you moved to the area though and clearly decided to stay, despite Grammars forcing other school to be so dire, because it suited you when your first kid got in 🤷‍♀️

It's not a brain thing. Some subjects are intrinsically more difficult than others. A Levels in Maths are popular choices because they are highly regarded and are necessary for many high ranking STEM university courses. Just because some people don't find them hard doesn't make them any easier. MFLs are not a good comparator. They are much more about flair than logic and critical thinking. Often language is the opposite of logic, more about patterns and learning the exceptions to the rules. A decent memory for vocabulary. Really not that difficult. Unless you are going on to study MFL at Oxbridge, Maths carries more prestige and opens more doors. I leaned both ways in school and have studied both to a high level. Maths has much more depth and breadth as a subject.

Did you hate it when your eldest was sitting the test too? Or is this a sudden change now that the youngest is struggling.

@Belgazou I don’t agree. It’s been well researched that MFLs use and change your brain for the better. If it’s just learning by rote, how come so many dc cannot learn a MFL? Maths is flair too. Often runs in families. I’m not dismissing sciences but other subjects are hard to impossible for some people. We also need a mix of talents and MFLs at a top uni do of course teach transferable skills. It totally depends what door you want to open. If everyone was a maths “nerd” we would be sadly lacking in many ways. All aspects of advanced academic study are valuable. Thank goodness. Also Oxbridge MFLs are not superior.

What is your direct experience of studying either? Vicarious study doesn't count. I have studied both. There is nothing of challenge once you have mastered a language whilst Maths has infinite extension possibilities. They are very, very different. Studying MFL at Oxbridge is excellent because the small tutorial system is fantastic for language study. I think it is daft to pigeon hole people as nerdy Mathmos or airy fairy MFL graduates. I'm both so that must be confusing.

Why do some people on here have to do their utmost to have a pop at posters?

@KitKatChunki @ConsuelaHammock I’m sorry but when I moved here, secondary schools were not at the forefront of my mind and by the time I realised what the system was like, my circumstances and finances did not allow for me to just move area. If you managed to pick an area with wonderful schools that stayed that way until your DC were old enough to attend them, well done you, pat on the back.

And, yes, I f*cking hated it when DS1 did it too.

It's not as if houses in grammar areas are hard to sell. People who don't agree with the system tend to move before secondary for that exact reason. Welcome to the world of kids with SEN in your town, using a system you've supported that penalises anyone who doesn't pass. Don't moan when it has been your choice that has led you here; happy enough to take selective education on one side of the coin but not when it doesn't go your way. I don't think that's "having a pop" that's "you made your bed".

@StressyStressHead

Are you living in the area where comprehensive schools have very bad results?

Girls at the age of 10-11 are much more mature than boys at the same age. 11+ age is simply too young to sit such exam at his age. But wait a while at the A levels he will be equally ready as the girls are.

I don't understand that push for grammar school. Maybe I understand only in the areas where the comprehensive are below expectations and no other alternatives.
Especially that most of the grammars are not even good schools but very average and the good results are driven by the kids and their parents rather than some sort of superb teaching. And grammars are underfunded. They get less per pupil than other schools

Jesus, you’re a delight aren’t you @KitKatChunki ? Please don’t make assumptions - I didn’t move here for the grammars - like I said, I wasn’t even thinking of schools when I moved here.

I love how you think it’s so easy for people just to sell their homes, uproot their lives and move just like that. No consideration for where I might work, where my family live, where my children’s father lives, how much equity I might or might not have in my home, the expense of moving that perhaps I can’t afford…

I’m sorry if you’re struggling with SEN issues but why not start your own thread about that rather than diminishing other people’s problems as you feel yours are more pressing?

@PeachSalad that is interesting and quite possible. Any research which suggest grammar schools receive lower fund?

Agree
MFL are respected by many as many find it difficult to learn a language . You definitely cannot learn a language by rote. One usually has to have a flair for languages
I actually think that it is harder to study for a language degree than a science. I say this as someone whose first degree was chemistry..

If you haven't done a degree in a language how do you know what's harder?

@Lampzade For goodness sake it is not a rocket science to learn a language. Just a matter of time and exposure; the best is a total immersion in the language.
Millions of foreginers settled in UK and they learnt to speak fluent English

I'm with @StressyStressHead here. If you move to a 'grammar school area' before you have DCs – or even when they are of primary school age – why would you consider the nature of the secondary schooling system in that area? Particularly if you had no previous knowledge of such things. It simply wouldn't have factored into your thinking.

Scroll forward 10 years and there might be all sorts of reasons why you can't easily move, from a work situation, to having caring responsibilities, to the costs of moving, to yours/your DCs friends…. Or you might simply really like everything else about where you live, apart from the secondary school system there.

@Rp735 as a (wide) generalisation because grammar schools tend to have fewer DCs with SEN and therefore don't receive the extra funding that DCs with SEN (should) attract. I don't think it's strictly true that they get less funding per pupil, but rather that they are less likely to get extra.

@Rp735

Widly known fact. This is the reason why the grammar schools still exist. The government justifies that they are cheaper to run. Google it

@thing47 grammar schools have quite a few kids with ASD, often brill mathematicians. Also the SEN budget is not something thrown at the school depending on the number of pupils. It is given depending on the SEN kids on the register and also on SEN monitoring. EHCP is also given per case

Exactly. In continental Europe it is the norm to be quite fluent in at least one other language, sometimes several. It's not seen to be anything out of the ordinary at all. Children can become fluent in another language in months. It is not rocket science.

Is it possible to pass the 11+ without tutoring or doing the CGP/Bond books?

I am sure my kids did hardly any non verbal reasoning 11+ type work at the local primary but that is 1/3 of the content for 11+.

@Belgazou So you have a MFL degree and a maths degree? Well done you! A MFL degree is not time and exposure. You have absolutely no idea do you? Academic MFLs are not just speaking, I’m afraid you are ignorant about what an academic MFL degree is. It cannot be done in months. Just utterly stupid to equate picking up a few bits of conversation with a degree. It’s a bit like saying a few equations is a maths degree. Ridiculous. Do you think the same about history and English? After all, English is spoken from birth so must be worthless!

This whole conversation is an issue with many maths types who seem to have a very narrow and superior attitude. DD did a MFL degree and I bet you didn’t. I’m talking about British people who run a mile from MFLs. They don’t run a mile from maths. Also you cannot populate the workplace with mathematicians or scientists. Other skills are needed. Thank goodness others have them and we have a mix.

@Lampzade I think my DD wouldn’t want to study chemistry. However my point is different people are suited by different subjects and it’s not helpful to say you can study an academic subject in 3 months as has been suggested by others.

Yes I do, sorry. You are so wrong. Again. I studied 13th to 20th century French and Italian Literature as part of the degree I did and it was very interesting and fun but certainly not rocket science. Nothing compared to Maths and Science subjects. Sorry to let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric.

Part of a degree? So not a full degree. Anyway I’m not commenting again. You just think you are superior so I will leave it at that.

Quite obviously (to most), literature is only part of a language degree. Yes my knowledge on this is superior so someone's who hasn't studied any languages.

My focus was more on studying an MFL at A level/ degree level.
I speak and write English to a decent level, but would not be able to study an English Literature degree at university
The fact that many students don’t even consider studying MFL is simply because they are bloody difficult. In fact , some ‘good’ universities accept lower grades for MFL.

Absolutely agree with all of this
I question the authenticity of some of these posters.
How can anyone who has claimed to have knowledge of higher education think that speaking and immersing yourself in a language means that you can do a bloody degree in it?