F*cking hate the f*cking 11+ system

[StressyStressHead]

DS1 passed and is at a grammar. DS2 is due to sit it in September and prep is not going well.

DS1 had a tutor in yr 5 just for an hour a week and was very enthusiastic as he enjoys that sort of thing. DS2 didn’t want a tutor (fine - i always said I would never force anything on either child) so has been doing prep with me. Just an hour a week. Sometimes sessions go well - often, they don’t. He often has meltdowns if he gets something wrong, and wants to give up and it is so bloody hard to deal with.

ImI don’t care whether my kids go to a grammar or not but the issue is, the non-grammars in our area are not great so if you want a chance at a good school, you’ve no choice but to do the test.

Without sounding like an arse, for those who are bound to make comments like “children shouldn’t need tutoring to pass the test” “why would you put your child under that much pressure”, please understand that:

a) despite what the local authorities will tell you, the 11+ tests kids on lots of things they have NOT learnt in school so to expect them to sit it with no prep is unrealistic

b) competition is ridiculous - kids from miles outside our area sit the test and apply for our local grammars. They have MASSIVE amounts of tutoring which pushes up the pass mark (there’s no set pass mark, it’s based on how the cohort performs that year)

c) believe me, I am doing my utmost not to pressure him but he needs to do some practice - he’s worried all his friends will pass and go to grammar without him - and he’s probably right as so many of them are doing summer 11+ courses and hours of tuition

d) some friends who don’t live in a grammar area have said to me that if he doesn’t want to do the prep, just to tell him fine, that’s his decision but it’s down to him if he ends up at a rubbish school - which seems bloody harsh for a 10 year old!!

I keep telling him this does not define him, it simply gives him a wider choice of schools but I know he’ll feel a failure if he doesn’t pass.

Not sure what my AIBU is, just need to vent.

You say in another post that your experience of grammars is that your brother went there. So very out of date then. If you believe that only Medicine and Law count as degrees, you are very misguided. Of course, destinations vary by grammar but in the two that I have had children study in a significant number did go on to study the most competitive courses at the best unversities for those subjects and many got four A stars at ALevel. Maybe you should look at the stats for the grades you need to study Computer Science at Manchester or Economics at LSE. You may be surprised.

Agree to all of your comments, OP. We're in the same boat 🙁and from some of the things you've said, it sounds like you're possibly in the same area.

It's a shitty system that does not test kids' true abilities, but their aptitude to understand material a year + ahead, learn it all in a short space of time (on top of school, activities, sports, rest, fun etc.), and to answer questions ridiculously quickly.

Another parent told me that many kids from nearby private schools sit "our" test, as prep for one they sit much later, for a well known private grammar, but have no intention of ever attending our local school. This pushes pass marks even more😡.

What really pissed me off, is that yes, it's a selective school but local kids' attendance of our local grammar has now dropped to 30%. A middle system, where the school is still selective but prioritised local kids, would be much more palatable.

It's sad they have to take a test at 10 years old but when that's the way it is. I live here in the west midlands and we're one of a few areas who still have the test. The year my daughter took it over 5,000 children took it. They come from all over . They use to come from the Welsh border but that has now stopped since they brought in catchment areas.
Grammar school just not only being a great education but brownie points when they put it on their CV.

@ednakenneth "Grammar school just not only being a great education but brownie points when they put it on their CV."

Evidence for this, please?

When you put king Edward vi on your CV a potential employer would look at this as providing the best state education.
My son's friend who attended king Edward vi went to Cambridge and is now working for a top accountancy company. He said that helped him greatly when applying for a job. This maybe one case I can recollect but I don't have hard data.

Increasing big firms are recruiting CV blind so they don't know which university you went to, never mind which school.

Children are working 2/3 years ahead normal comprehensive schools.

Absolute piffle. The DC I had at a grammar did 10 of the same 11 GCSEs other DC did at a secondary modern a year later. All academic subjects plus PE (some people seem to think that pupils at grammars somehow take subjects which are magically only open to them). They got very similar grades too.

@ednakenneth Once you have a degree, or two, the vast majority of employers aren't going to give a monkey's where you went to school or what GCSEs you got.

@AtomHeartMotherOfGod Yes 50 years ago I did do grammar properly nowadays at 68 years old i don't have to please the grammar police

@thing47 Could not agree more. This notion that grammars somehow make other dc inferior and unable to take decent GCSEs is mystifying. You and I both know that DC at grammars are not all motivated or achieve more. Certainly don’t in a grammar county. A few don’t get on in them and parents won’t move them.

@surreygirl1987 I suggest you update your research. You do indicate dc won’t do as well in non grammars and this is plainly not the case when these schools have 30% higher achievers. In comps in en area with super selective grammars the higher achiever percentage is likely to be higher. The bigger challenge is usually SEN pupils but that’s the case in all schools.

Probably a little late now but I had the same type of children. I tutored the first one the same as you who was willing and eager to learn. The second one was a nightmare and I got to the January before the exam and got her a tutor. They said that she was eager and willing to learn. Basically she listened to the tutor and not me! I was happy to pay. They are both at grammar. Maybe try bribing them. I think one of my DC friends got a dog. Whatever it takes 🤣. Good luck.

Sorry for being quiet.
This thread has made me feel terribly guilty now.

I get what PPs are saying when they say that I’m the adult and should’ve just made him have a tutor - or even to get a last minute one now. But then that puts the pressure on him even more and sends the message that this test is really important - when I’ve been telling him that all this test does is give him a greater choice of schools and helps us choose the right one for him.

He's a sensitive kid and I’m just trying to work with his personality the same way I did with his brother, and do my best to give him the widest, best options.

I’m in Bexley. Yes, I have looked at some of the comps (or secondary moderns - still don’t understand the difference!) can’t say I loved any of them. And I don’t want a boys’ school so our choices are limited. Maybe some of you are right - maybe he’ll go to a non-grammar and thrive and of course, that would be amazing. I’m sure he probably does feel the pressure because his brother is at a grammar - but I have always done my utmost to never imply that grammar is best. Even when DS1 passed, I made it very clear to him that if he preferred any of the comps to the grammars, I’d be happy for him to go there and DS2 knows that.

I just feel like I can’t win with him ☹️

But then that puts the pressure on him even more and sends the message that this test is really important - when I’ve been telling him that all this test does is give him a greater choice of schools and helps us choose the right one for him.

You're sending mixed signals

Because ultimately I think you DO think it's really important. You're kind of pretending that's not the case because you don't like the implications of it.

You have to pick a lane here. Either it isn't important, and its entirely up to him how much work he does for it, even if he takes the exam at all.

Or it IS important and you owe it to him to be the grown up, throw everything you have at it (which involves a tutor) and he gives it his very best shot,

This halfway house you're attempting isn't working. So choose what you really think is important and commit to one side or the other.

You have my sympathy, because the system is rotten. We are all only trying our best within that.

For what it's worth, I grew up in NI where the 11+ was hugely consequential. I know of many children who didn't get it, but who thrived in secondary moderns and tbh those schools were a better fit for them though this was hard to accept at the time.

I know. I know I’m being a bit airy fairy. If this was say, GCSEs, I would be being forceful and making him work and their everything at them. But it’s not the same thing, is it?

I don’t want him to be devastated if he doesn’t pass, and feel like his fate is sealed at the age of 10.

throw everything

Are you in Bexley ! Here I was thinking the comps around are OK. Time to stress then 😪 . In what way do you think they are not OK? I hear a lot of problems in the girls grammars too and see the behaviourfirat hand everyday at the bus stop. Not sure of the boys though.

I understand your angst.
My three all went to comprehensives (one of the schools was definitely considered to be under par, and was single sex when I wanted co-ed. But the kids all did well. We live less than a mile from the border with a borough that has grammars and it's cut throat out there.
I really wish grammars didn't exist, it's horribly divisive.
The way to improve your less than great comprehensive is to send your children there. As another poster has said. And keep on the case to make sure their educational and social needs are being met.
If, after all your efforts, this isn't happening, then consider more radical options. I appealed the first school my oldest child attended because the school wasn't listening and he got a place at a better school where he thrived.
I do get, though, your understandable anxiety about your second child ending up at a 'worse' school.

I should have said, we opted not to apply for grammars.

Thank you @Toptops - your story gives me hope!

We’re at a ‘good comp’ and neither child is enjoying it. It’s not good enough in my book but this is what education is in this country! You just have to look at Scotland or Ireland or the continent to see how rubbish our education system is!

Scotland? Many Scots would not agree. Scottish standards are sinking!

I have 2 nephews who attended this school.
one was lauded as a maths genius but was asked to leave uni after 3 years as he didn’t achieve the grades to continue to the 4th year . The other struggled all the way through.
One now works for a small local company, the other isn’t working.

Their cousins went to the local comp, (different area of the country), attended similar universities, left with STEM Masters degrees and went on to grad schemes with international companies.
8 years post uni, the comp DC have significantly more interesting and senior roles.

Maybe you’ve taken me up wrong , I did not say medicine or law are only degrees, anything that has a university course obviously is a degree. It is a well known fact that medine/dentistry are the most competitive and only the best students doing the most difficult subjects will be successful. This will not be a high percentage. Physics, chemistry and maths are far more difficult than any other subject… this is well known, 4 A in these subjects are not comparable to 4 A/A in arts , health and social care etc etc. This is a fact.
A child can do well in comp if they do the work and have parental support. I know a lot of families paying for private education and it was wasted on their children, they would have done equally well in a average school.
If we send our children to the local schools we would have a mix of levels.. it should be done on catchment areas, live in the catchment get the school. If you want a ‘better education’ pay private fees.. it’s unfair to put a 10 year old through tough testing, mentally and emotionally.

The grades for all university courses have increased significantly in recent years.

I just don’t believe every student at grammar school are gaining top marks, especially these days.

Many young adults can do equally as well not going to university. A lot of computer tech courses can be done through other pathways ie local technical colleges. Look at accountancy, it can be done within employment now or night courses. There are so many options for young people these days.

I hope the OP finds a way through with her boy, there are lot for everyone if they want to take the opportunity. Best wishes OP

@travelmom24 A levels in maths are booming. It’s not true everyone finds it hard! Look at MFLs. Dc find these really hard! They actually give up! It’s a brain thing isn’t it. Some can do maths, some MFLs some are great at everything.

We don’t have a local technical college. It became a university. Local college of FE certainly isn’t a technical college. No idea where do in this area would go! That also would apply for any form of engineering. Bricklaying etc is available. Where we go wrong is not providing part time courses all over the country for employed dc. Apprentices. They are so difficult to find. Even then it’s the local lowly rated uni. Anyone intelligent doesn’t need this type of degree so there’s no choice at all. Dc must go to uni.

I grew up with 11+ system and my kids are in a grammar area.

I did a bit of prep for a few weeks before the exam. Passed with flying colours.

Ds1 did the same.

DS2 and 3 are not the sort of kids to do work at home so I didn’t push the practice at home. They didn’t pass and go to the local comp, we also have pretty shitty comps but both are thriving and doing their best and ultimately the most important thing is they’re happy.

Meltdowns over prep work are not going to help your DS take in the information he needs. He might be better suited to comp education l.

Two of my three dcs attended grammar school and I have lectured at colleges and universities
I can assure you that you that it is highly unlikely that a student would get brownie points because they attended a grammar school,