DH’s attitude re riots etc upsetting and angering me

[Pinkycloud]

I feel so sick. Every time we talk about the riots, DH comes out with ‘well people are angry, etc’. He says he doesn’t condone violence, but there’s always a ‘but’. He voted Reform, I voted Lib Dem. I tell him he sounds racist in some of the comments he makes, which he vehemently denies.

He’s a loving, hardworking husband and father but… this! He is honestly a good man. I don’t know how to deal with it other than banning the subject. Has anyone else got very different political views from their spouse or partner?

I've just posted along the same lines this in a similar thread. It gives a frankly scary insight into an unsustainable population explosion.

''I agree there is a lack of UK born medical staff for some reason. That is something that does need looked at and remedied.

But to do that you must also factor in population increases. How long does it take for a person to enter medical school to becoming qualified. If we are saying net migration is running at 700k more people annually.

In (lets say 10 years) from entering training to being qualified enough to be a GP. We have had a population increase of 7m people. That is more than the entire population of Scotland. GP numbers for the whole of Scotland are around 4500. To sustain the demand for their services we need to be training circa a further 4500 above what we already do to stand still.

So basically we have the chicken or the egg scenario. Which comes first, more immigrant labour with associated dependents or more home grown trained Dr's.''

@mrshoho
"There's been a similar article written in the guardian that was linked here earlier. So not just right wing propaganda."

Oh well, it must be true then 🙄

There's a mass of evidence on the impact of immigration on wages. It's complex and often contradictory.

So for example The Migration Observatory at Oxford University says

"Measuring the effects of immigration is a difficult statistical exercise, and this means that studies do not always say exactly the same thing. Researchers’ choices about the data they use, the time period they study, and the methods they apply can all affect the results. However, if we consider several different studies together, we can identify some basic trends that are broadly consistent across studies."

From their briefing on the impacts of immigration on the labour market in the UK, focusing on wages and employment:

• The number of jobs in the UK economy is not fixed. Migrants may compete with existing workers in the UK for jobs, but they also cause the number of jobs to increase

• Research shows that the impacts of migration on wages and employment prospects for UK-born workers is small

• Low-wage workers are more likely to lose out from immigration while medium and high-paid workers are more likely to gain, but the effects are small

• The wage effects of immigration are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are migrants themselves

And for what it's worth, recent increases in the minimum wage mean the pay per hour gap between the lowest paid workers and those in the middle is now the smallest it's been in nearly 50 years, so not a lot of evidence of severely depressed wages at the bottom of the pay scale.

Pot and kettle.

First off - we do not have 'mass uncontrolled immigration' no matter how many times you've read that phrase in your copy of the Daily Mail/Telegraph, or whatever right wing source you get your information on migration from. 93% of all immigrants who've come to the UK in the past decade have come here under FOM until BREXIT or by invitation, AKA with a visa. Only 7% are refugees, and a large number of those individuals have been invited here from Hong Kong, Afghanistan or Ukraine with a visa.

Migrants who come here on a visa - which is more than 9 out of 10 of them - pay 1K a year NHS surcharge. While 49% of Brits is aged 20 to 60, the group which uses the NHS least, 72% of foreign born people fall into this category. This means they're not only paying towards the NHS via a surcharge, but also through taxation, and on top of that are less likely to use the NHS than your average Brit.

Finally - there are areas of the UK where few residents were born outside the UK. Many parts of the North East fall into this category with less than one in 10 people being immigrants. The evidence suggests that it's even harder to get a doctors or dentists appointment in these areas than it is in places like London, where more than 40% of the population was born outside of the UK, possibly because the 35% of NHS doctors that are immigrants prefer working in places which are more diverse. (and I suspect racist riots across large swathes of the country where the demand for appointments is highest because of poverty and the poor public health that goes hand in hand with poverty won't improve this situation...).

No matter how many times you've read that phrase in your copy of the Daily Mail/Telegraph, or whatever right wing source you get your information on migration from.

I don't read the Daily Mail or Telegraph. However, assuming you read left wing publications, it's not surprising those are the stats you've come across. I suspect the reality on the street is quite different.

Have you always believed everything the media tells you?

First off - we do not have 'mass uncontrolled immigration' no matter how many times you've read that phrase in your copy of the Daily Mail/Telegraph, or whatever right wing source you get your information on migration from. 93% of all immigrants who've come to the UK in the past decade have come here under FOM until BREXIT

Can you describe what control the UK had over control on movement of people within the EU? It may have been legal, it certainly wasn't under control. It was the very catalyst that started the Brexit movement.

My apologies, I was incorrect you are not the same person.

I just found it difficult to believe two people at the same time had such a poor grasp of what lobbying is. I'll use your 'John' example to highlight.

I'm a lobbyist for a sandwich company. I want an addition to the bill that says everybody not called John should get sandwiches every friday. If I get my way. That means the initial bill needs to be re-written with that clause added.

"Those are the stats you've come across?"

You don't get to have your own alternative facts that suit your right wing agenda.

Here are some sources for reliable information on immigration. None of them are 'left wing' media sources.

"Based at the Centre on Migration, Policy and Society (COMPAS) at the University of Oxford, the Migration Observatory provides impartial, independent, authoritative, evidence-based analysis of data on migration and migrants in the UK, to inform media, public and policy debates, and to generate high quality research on international migration and public policy issues."

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/

The government's own information portal for information on legislation relating to access to healthcare for immigrants in the UK

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/nhs-entitlements-migrant-health-guide#:~:text=All%20overseas%20visitors%20will%20be,overseas%20visitors%20hospital%20charging%20regulations

House of Commons Library

For migration statistics

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06077/

"I suspect the reality on the street is quite different."

I have no idea what you mean by this.

"Have you always believed everything the media tells you?"

No - but you clearly have.

@ATenShun "Can you describe what control the UK had over control on movement of people within the EU? It may have been legal, it certainly wasn't under control. It was the very catalyst that started the Brexit movement."

Our membership of the EU wasn't an electoral priority for the vast majority of Brits, despite demographic pressures created in housing, education and healthcare by swingeing austerity from 2011 - 2015.

Enter Fartage, and the dark money funded Leave.Eu campaign with its racist 'breaking point' campaign, portraying thousands of middle eastern looking people pouring into Britain, and in one year our membership of the EU became an electoral priority for vast numbers of people. The Leave campaign was the catalyst that lead to BREXIT

Of course migration from the EU plummeted after BREXIT, leaving many UK businesses struggling and the government looking for 'trade deals for visas' in response to the economic impact of leaving the EU.

And the gaps have been filled three times over with vast numbers of workers coming from outside the EU - and the thing with those immigrants is that they're much, much less likely to leave in response to changing conditions in the UK economy or housing market - because it costs them so much in visa fees and the immigration process is such an incredibly complex, expensive and time consuming process that they're less likely to return home when they're exposed to economic and housing problems in the UK.

You'll have to agree to disagree. Ridiculous the people that say they'll be packing their bags, they are either alone, or have a fairy tale relationship with a perfect partner 🙄

Yeah this. The bizarre reasons that some posters on here tell others they need to LTB for are hilarious. We all know the vast VAST majority of posters on here would NOT leave their husband purely because his views started to become a little bit more right of centre.

People change as they get older, and many people do start to become more right-leaning, (especially working class men!) but even though it's annoying if you are centric or left of centre yourself, you don't fucking leave them!

People saying they would leave their partner if their views started to move to the right a bit, are full of it honestly. Yeah if they became a racist thug who set fire to hotels to kill innocent immigrants, that is a BIT different - OK a LOT - but that's not what's happening here. The OP's partner says he gets why people are angry, disillusioned and disenfranchised.

As I said, anyone who says they'd leave their husband for this is absolutely full of it!

Why can’t you just agree to disagree? My husband and I don’t agree on everything but I support his right to free speech and his right to vote for who he chooses. Have you considered that he may feel similarly towards your political views?

What do you mean by he sounds racist? Did he make racist comments? I’d be really careful of saying things like this to your husband unless he of course he actually being racist.

No. What started the whole Brexit saga was a very rich man called Aaron Banks who bankrolled the (misinformation heavy) campaign because he wanted to make more money. And he did. He bet money in the pound devaluing (shorting?) - I didn’t fully understand it - and made a mint. Farage got notoriety and made a name for himself despite being a brainless twat. There were no queues if brown skinned men. It was all clever manipulation and it’s had zero benefit.

Not to mention Aaron Banks's links with Russia. No one is cheering the riots more than Russian media

So basically you don’t want the same justice for people who have no money as for those who do ? Solicitors do work pro bono, but what you’re saying is that in cases of immigration they should always do the work for free. Would you work for nothing ?

Read your post back. Did you mean to be so unnecessarily confrontational?

First of all: calm down love. Your entire tone and attitude is exactly why we have these problems; people simply cannot offer an alternative view without getting their head ripped off.

I will say this: The fact you have 'no idea what I mean' when I say: "I suspect the reality on the street is quite different" is very telling.

It basically means: Get your nose out of the books, your eyes off the TV news and social media, open your mind and, using your legs, actually travel to parts of London, Birmingham, Bradford, Hull and countless other cities across the country and SEE for yourself the reality of the lives native working class people are actually living.

If you still don't know what I'm talking about by then, frankly, you never will.

Nobody is denying life is shit for a lot of people, @Jumpingthruhoops
The thing is, it’s not migrants causing the issue as the figures you’ve been linked to show. And you ‘having a different vie’ is you denying facts, which ultimately won’t help sort the issues you claim to be concerned about. Opinion is one thing. Fact is another, and you can’t have your own facts.

And the same goes for you! Neither can you ignore facts that are not to your liking. Works both ways and you clearly cannot see that there are facts showing the very real negative impacts that the UK is experiencing because of net immigration. I haven't been impacted in the same way as others but I can acknowledge their very real, lived experience.

Reminds me when posters here would say how stupid leave voters were and how their own children's lives were ruined because the little darlings would no longer have free access to travel to Europe. They couldn't give a shit about the lives of poor and working-class people.

I’m not ignoring facts though.
People’s lives are shit in many cases
People blame I migrants
Immigrants aren’t the cause, austerity is.

Edit: why don’t you think the less well off benefitted from freedom of movement? Because they did.

So a massive influx of migrant labour from Eastern Europe was a figment of my (and many others) immagination? We didn't have job sectors like the construction trade where rates were reduced to levels that meant a British builder could not compete! We did not have migrant labour living in overcrowded unsuitable accomodation so they could save money to take back to eg Romania, where there eg £250 a week was the equivalent to 3 or 4 times it was in the UK!

Because there are many people who have grown up here never having even visited the seaside in their own county or travelled further than their own hometown. Bemoaning the fact that European travel was going to become a chore just made some loud preachy people look completely out of touch with the lives of others who could not see any benefit to staying in the EU.

I agree austerity, capitalism and poor government have made the living standards of working class people decline. I can also see how rapid population growth of 6 million plus has also led to a decline in living standards. Less social housing availability, less school places, Longer waiting times for children's services. Our infrastructure did not keep pace with the expanding population. People relayed these fears twenty years ago and were told to shut up. There's no point in pretending as surely it's better to acknowledge otherwise people still feel lied to. Labour have made a good start revealing their ambitious house building plan. It's going to be a huge task. As for our health service, we have just had to accept that 2 year waits for hip replacements and other non life threatening conditions is the new normal. Fine if you have private health insurance but tough for the rest. I'm not demonising immigrants. The NHS really has been built on valued immigrant work force. I'm an immigrant who came to the UK as a child.

No. The population increase hasn’t affected that. First for the reasons linked above, second because it’s the failure to fund infrastructure expanding at the same rate, not the increase, that’s the problem.

How can you say it hasn't? There was never a hope in hell that it would keep up with the demand. Now we have such high overcrowding in housing that standards are being lowered. It's now acceptable to convert a 3 bedroomed semi that was originally built for families of 5 or 6 to HMOs with 15 adults. And those desperate adults take in more occupants to reduce their rent so 30 people end up li in there. Plus a shed at the bottom of the garden with more people. Maybe once this is replicating in more affluent areas people may start to a acknowledge.

Why not? If asylum seekers are processed properly they start earning and paying tax quickly. Other immigrants (the vast majority) come with work lined up and pay pretty much immediately. Why can’t infrastructure keep up?

Edit: your comments in housing are really not representative of the vast, vast majority of the country. I’d need to see evidence it happened at all (and I live in a high immigrant area). There’s a lot of empty housing stock in the country.

Are you saying that an increased population that didn't/doesn't have the infrastructure to support it is an acceptable situation. Are you incorrectly saying the majority of the British public lay that blame on the immigrants?

If so you are incorrect, I and most others put the blame squarely on the shoulders of all the politicians that haven't stood up and allowed immigration to get out of hand.

However, the noisy shouty liberals similar to yourself, who kept shouting racism at anyone who suggested a more controlled approach do need to accept that uncontrolled immigration in relation to this Countries current resources has not worked.