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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:22

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:32

Surely the discussion should be centred around their participation in female sports and not conjecture of gender tests we've not been privy to? I just don't understand this obsession with calling these individuals out as male. In Khelif's case in particular, if you consider her conservative upbringing, her family back in this tiny Algerian village coming out to defend her and insisting she is a woman, it's cruel.

Based on the evidence we can see she is female, who probably has a DSD. until we see evidence of the contrary, it would be kinder to keep discussions around permitting such individuals in participating in female sports/sports in general, or around participation and exclusion criteria, or around assessing such criteria.

DaisyFloop · 06/08/2024 18:33

In my opinion XY is male. Regardless of what bits and bobs you have or donate have, you're biologically male which gives you an advantage, easier to build muscle, less fat in general, bigger hands and feet etc

Chichimcgee · 06/08/2024 18:34

ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:32

Surely the discussion should be centred around their participation in female sports and not conjecture of gender tests we've not been privy to? I just don't understand this obsession with calling these individuals out as male. In Khelif's case in particular, if you consider her conservative upbringing, her family back in this tiny Algerian village coming out to defend her and insisting she is a woman, it's cruel.

Based on the evidence we can see she is female, who probably has a DSD. until we see evidence of the contrary, it would be kinder to keep discussions around permitting such individuals in participating in female sports/sports in general, or around participation and exclusion criteria, or around assessing such criteria.

He looks like a man and has male biology though?

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 18:34

maddening · 06/08/2024 18:32

Agree with everything you say and safety is key, however even in non contact sports why should a woman lose her spot to a mediocre man - fairness is also important.

And it may feel unfair that a person's DSD means they can't win at competitive sports (they can compete in their own sex class but would be unlikely to beat their elite male athlete counterparts) - but hell many of us have physical conditions that mean winning in competitive sport is not possible.

I totally agree with you.

And have written many posts just like yours.

But my posts are already long enough to try to get people to read and maybe understand the issues. I cannot include it all in one post. 😁

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 06/08/2024 18:35

This reply has been deleted

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WomaninBoots · 06/08/2024 18:36

ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:32

Surely the discussion should be centred around their participation in female sports and not conjecture of gender tests we've not been privy to? I just don't understand this obsession with calling these individuals out as male. In Khelif's case in particular, if you consider her conservative upbringing, her family back in this tiny Algerian village coming out to defend her and insisting she is a woman, it's cruel.

Based on the evidence we can see she is female, who probably has a DSD. until we see evidence of the contrary, it would be kinder to keep discussions around permitting such individuals in participating in female sports/sports in general, or around participation and exclusion criteria, or around assessing such criteria.

Define "female" and present the evidence that this individual is thus?

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 18:37

ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:32

Surely the discussion should be centred around their participation in female sports and not conjecture of gender tests we've not been privy to? I just don't understand this obsession with calling these individuals out as male. In Khelif's case in particular, if you consider her conservative upbringing, her family back in this tiny Algerian village coming out to defend her and insisting she is a woman, it's cruel.

Based on the evidence we can see she is female, who probably has a DSD. until we see evidence of the contrary, it would be kinder to keep discussions around permitting such individuals in participating in female sports/sports in general, or around participation and exclusion criteria, or around assessing such criteria.

What female DSD do you think fits the evidence that we can see?

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 18:40

ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:32

Surely the discussion should be centred around their participation in female sports and not conjecture of gender tests we've not been privy to? I just don't understand this obsession with calling these individuals out as male. In Khelif's case in particular, if you consider her conservative upbringing, her family back in this tiny Algerian village coming out to defend her and insisting she is a woman, it's cruel.

Based on the evidence we can see she is female, who probably has a DSD. until we see evidence of the contrary, it would be kinder to keep discussions around permitting such individuals in participating in female sports/sports in general, or around participation and exclusion criteria, or around assessing such criteria.

Why are you denying a world leading boxing medical specialist who is also an IVF specialist who knows exactly how to read chromosome tests?

Why do you doubt his word?

You can keep saying 'we are not privy to it'. We don't have to be.

Three boxing federations have independently confirmed they have seen the tests. Why do you keep doubting that these athletes have XY chromosomes?

And seriously? You think it is more cruel to use precise and accurate language to describe this male athlete because "her family back in this tiny Algerian village coming out to defend her and insisting she is a woman"?

What about the other Algerian female athletes that have been significantly negatively impacted by this male athletes choices?

Please stop your emotional censuring. It is emotionally manipulative and you, personally, seem keen to deny the facts that have been released for some reason.

MattSmithsBowTie · 06/08/2024 18:41

You can see from the shape of their faces, their jawline, nose and foreheads as well as their shoulder to hip ratio and the shape of the muscles from their shoulders to their forearm that they are male.

I feel sorry for them, they’re from poor countries and they thought they were female and had found a way to excel and make money for their families, they probably haven’t had a great education and aren’t in a position to withdraw, they should have been prevented from being put in this position by the Olympic organisers.

FOJN · 06/08/2024 18:41

ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:32

Surely the discussion should be centred around their participation in female sports and not conjecture of gender tests we've not been privy to? I just don't understand this obsession with calling these individuals out as male. In Khelif's case in particular, if you consider her conservative upbringing, her family back in this tiny Algerian village coming out to defend her and insisting she is a woman, it's cruel.

Based on the evidence we can see she is female, who probably has a DSD. until we see evidence of the contrary, it would be kinder to keep discussions around permitting such individuals in participating in female sports/sports in general, or around participation and exclusion criteria, or around assessing such criteria.

I see a man.

The IBA have said he has XY chromosomes.

Correctly sexing him is vital to get him out of the women's boxing competition. I am not prepared to prioritise sensitivity when women are being put at risk.

Please don't tell other women to be kind, such a request is often used to shame women into silence when they complain about being treated unfairly.

Davros · 06/08/2024 18:42

I'm on the app so can't vote but YES I think they are male

Anyotherdude · 06/08/2024 18:42

YABU. But that’s because you are asking the wrong question, and blaming the wrong people…

GailBlancheViola · 06/08/2024 18:45

They are male and have no business being in female boxing, that's it, full stop, the end.

ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:49

WomaninBoots · 06/08/2024 18:36

Define "female" and present the evidence that this individual is thus?

She was assigned female at birth and was socialised as a female. This isn't a case of a trans woman who remains 100% biologically male despite any self ID.

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 18:49

Anyotherdude · 06/08/2024 18:42

YABU. But that’s because you are asking the wrong question, and blaming the wrong people…

My question is 'is it safe and fair for males to box women'. What is the correct question?

OP posts:
Runningupthecurtains · 06/08/2024 18:50

How can you have a meaningful discussion in which you argue that some woman can compete in women's sport but some women can't compete in women's sport? What is the common feature shared by the women you would see excluded from women's sport?

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 18:50

FOJN · 06/08/2024 18:41

I see a man.

The IBA have said he has XY chromosomes.

Correctly sexing him is vital to get him out of the women's boxing competition. I am not prepared to prioritise sensitivity when women are being put at risk.

Please don't tell other women to be kind, such a request is often used to shame women into silence when they complain about being treated unfairly.

Exactly. There is a lot at stake here. Women's safety, dignity, opportunities. Some of us think these things are important, so we are not prepared to piss about on this topic

Rightsraptor · 06/08/2024 18:51

Both are male, without a doubt.

Apparently there are two male footballers playing on women's teams too, but we don't seem to have heard about them.

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 18:52

ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:49

She was assigned female at birth and was socialised as a female. This isn't a case of a trans woman who remains 100% biologically male despite any self ID.

Well none of that is undisputed. But it doesn't change the facts does it? Why should a man be allowed to box a woman?

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 18:52

ailicis · 06/08/2024 18:32

Surely the discussion should be centred around their participation in female sports and not conjecture of gender tests we've not been privy to? I just don't understand this obsession with calling these individuals out as male. In Khelif's case in particular, if you consider her conservative upbringing, her family back in this tiny Algerian village coming out to defend her and insisting she is a woman, it's cruel.

Based on the evidence we can see she is female, who probably has a DSD. until we see evidence of the contrary, it would be kinder to keep discussions around permitting such individuals in participating in female sports/sports in general, or around participation and exclusion criteria, or around assessing such criteria.

It's most likely that questions were raised during puberty, when Khelif went through virilisation that would have made it very clear that he isn't female.

Khelif has seen the tests, knows his karyotype.

And is still going ahead with punching women in the face, despite knowing that he is endangering them and the fight is unfair.

It's cruel for a male to punch women in the face.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 18:53

We can't discuss Khelif's eligibility to fight women without pointing out that Khelif is male.

I've no desire to be cruel, but this man is due to start punching the next female in a few short hours.

Right now my sympathies are with her.

OP posts:
backslashruby · 06/08/2024 18:54

What is the common feature shared by the women you would see excluded from women's sport?

Being a man. There you go.

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 18:55

I am happy to be kind to the boxers once they refrain from punching women in the face to the risk of said women's safety and possibly lives.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 18:56

It's cruel for a male to punch women in the face.

I find it absolutely staggering that people are trying to gloss over this 😵‍💫

GCITC · 06/08/2024 18:57

Runningupthecurtains · 06/08/2024 18:50

How can you have a meaningful discussion in which you argue that some woman can compete in women's sport but some women can't compete in women's sport? What is the common feature shared by the women you would see excluded from women's sport?

Being biologically female should be what makes you eligible for women's sport.

The common feature of the two boxers is that they are male. That should exclude them from women's sport.

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