To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

Try telling a woman with complete AIS and female genital presentation, who is karyotype XY that she is a male, and see how you get on.

Odds are that you’ve actually MET such a woman at some point in your life, without ever knowing. Such a woman has never had a body able to react to androgens, and so to all intents and purposes in both appearance and largely in body, she is a woman - just one with XY chromosomes.

But they're not women?

But the boxer wore a guard and readjusted his penis so...

It’s not that simple, @ArabellaScott. Both were thought to be female at birth and were brought up as women.
The correct question is “Why didn’t the IOC do anything sensible (like set a limit for testosterone levels in competitors in the women’s contest) about it?”
Don’t blame the competitors, but the officials who chose to ignore the potential result of their inaction on this topic.

This was a response to the PP who says we can talk about excluding them but we can't call them men.
I know they are men, you know they are men, they know they are men, the PP knows they are men but thinks it's 'unkind' to mention it.
She doesn't seem to regard as unkind to hit a woman when you know you are male though.

Now that is pure conjecture. We cannot possibly know if and when doubts were raised by herself or her family about her reproductive health. She comes from rural Algeria. It's entirely possibly she/her family never sought out medical help if anything untoward was noticed during puberty. There is shame and stigma associated with reproductive disorders in such places.

She was assigned female at birth and was socialised as a female. This isn't a case of a trans woman who remains 100% biologically male despite any self ID.

The only evidence for that is a birth certificate issued in 2018 conveniently just before taking up boxing. Why do you think that is?

Do catch up, rather than try to derail. As you well know, I was replying to a poster who simply said “XY=male”.

I wasn’t trying to diagnose the boxer.

And (also not trying to diagnose the boxer) women with DSD can be born with abnormally large clitorises. I wouldn’t want to take a blow to my ginormous clitoris, would you?

I'm with you on the IOC failure. I'd suggest the key issue is whether someone has gone through male puberty, rather than current T levels.

That said, any male who knowingly punches women I struggle to sympathise with tbh.

No coach would happily have a female athlete who hasn't had a single period in their life. Even if a DSD hadn't crossed their mind they would be concerned about some sort underlying condition or some sort of nutritional failure.

So you're claiming she knew she was male but passed herself off as female, in Algeria no less, to participate in boxing?

This thread is full of supposition and conjecture.

And none of that was even slightly controversial 10 years ago. What the hell happened?

Wait wait, what? Where did you see that about the birth certificate? Is that normal in Algeria?

What about Lin. Taiwan has a world class heath system so why did no one ask questions about Lin when he reached puberty

I've deliberately not mentioned the other boxer since I have not read up on their case.

I'm amazed at the willingness of some posters on mumsnet to post stills and video focussed on this person's genitalia.

It's weird, bordering on creepy.

Birth certificate issued in 2018

x.com/jreichelt/status/1819756404896309627?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

If your clit is the size and shape of a penis maybe you should get tested? XY does equal male. That's just a fact.

Khelif knew for 100% certain in 2022. That is plenty of time to do the right thing.

You've used "female" in your 'definition' of female. That's not a definition. Try again.

Being observed to have female-like external genitalia at birth is not conclusive evidence of being female. It is proved to be correct in most cases but there are cases where the observation is mistaken and the individual turns out to be male. This is unfortunate but it does happen. The incorrect assignment of "female" does not make the individual actually female.

Look, I expect you are part of the “everyone is entitled to an opinion” camp, but I suggest that you actually do some reading and research and broaden your mind in order to form those opinions, and before you state those opinions.

Though broadly and largely true, it is absolutely not a fact.

Absolutely NOBODY on here (or in the "real" world for that matter) has said that either boxer in question is Trans.

Yes when born neither had genitals recognised as male, so they were ASSUMED to be female and were treated as such all through their childhoods.

No-one disputes that.

But if, as is suggested by the "failed tests", they have XY chromosomes then they probably started to viralise (appear more masculine) at the onset of puberty when huge amounts of testosterone are released. Not only would they look more masculine but the testosterone confers huge advantage physically over any woman. A man's punch is reckoned to be 162% harder than a woman's.

If they are both DSD like Caster Semanya then they are men, whatever their genitala.

Because I have seen this debate everywhere, in the media, on other forum sites, amongst friends. It's something I'm particularly interested in, partly due to my love of sport and also due to my interest in biology and social psychology as a close friend works in this field. I therefore tend to lap up the media on this. Mumsnet definitely isn't representative of what I've seen elsewhere or amongst friends, which has been far more mixed in terms of views.
Mumsnet is notoriously anti-trans and feminist, its quite understandable that it won't be representative of society as a whole.

Why are you determined he is female when all the evidence says otherwise? Looks like a man, sounds like a man, chromosomes of a man, rearranges and guards a male penis or ginormous clit if you're being ridiculous.

Lea Thomas was crap at swimming until he decided to be a woman. Whose to say the boxer couldn't get into the sport as a man so decided to be a woman since that seems to work for other chap athletes? Whether it's ignorance or done on purpose a male shouldn't be boxing a female and it should be that simple.