To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

These athletes ARE male though.

Because so many posters, who admit that they are not informed on this topic, wish others to continue to use the words that they, personally, wish to use describe the situation. In doing so, these posters are continuing the confusion, ie. their own confusion, and blocking their own learning on the topic. Because, instead of asking for clarification, they are censuring posters.

Using the words 'woman' and 'female' to describe these two male athletes has had such a detrimental impact on the discussion and ultimately, to the protection of female people's rights to fair sport and safety. This supports misogyny.

You, personally, can choose to use whatever language you want. But please stop censuring others for using precise and accurate language that shows the issues clearly.

Women with DSDs are not the same as men with DSDs that were incorrectly noted as female at birth.

Then what word do you use if not biological male? This isn’t about identity. As an identity they are female . N0 one is arguing that. It’s about biology. Biologically they are male. If you don’t want to use the word biological male, what word do we use then? Biological what? As irrelevant of genitalia disorders we only have biological men or women.

To be frank, it doesn't even matter if you have trust in the IBA testing or not.

The IOC have been 100% clear that they do not believe in sex testing and they're happy to go by the athletes passport for eligibility. We know that passports can be changed via self ID in some countries. We are also at the mercy of individual governments who issue them.

The IOC has no problem with men in women's boxing. The doors are wide open to it. Regardless of the status of these individuals.

They are men with a DSD, not women.

How they were identified at birth and raised does not remove the advantage of male puberty and the danger that difference presents to female boxers.

I think if they were sure they were biologically female - or had a DSD which did not give them a male advantage in sport they would have appealed and followed through with the appeal of the previous tests.

My worry is that the IOC will drop boxing from the next Olympics and then consider the matter over.

What I’d like to see would be a screening system for all athletes who want to compete in the female category.

Cheek swap and then follow up tests for any one who fails the cheek swab to check for testosterone levels etc.

Would only have to be done once in a lifetime for each athlete. So not exceedingly expensive to administer once it got going - unlike drug testing etc which has to be done for each event.

"and have always lived their lives as women".

I want to point out that it is highly likely that these male athletes have known since at least puberty that they are male.

They would have been taken to the doctors for testing as to why they never menstruated and why they seemed to have male puberty. That would be half their lives ago.

They have certainly know this since last year, most likely also had it confirmed in 2022 when they were initially failing tests.

I am sympathetic to their situation. Except that at the very least they knew in 2023. They have chosen to compete knowing that the science is already out there that they are putting female competitors in immense danger every time they get into the ring with a female boxer.

They have chosen this path deliberately. They have chosen to not respect female people in doing so. Their choices are all about their own winning glory.

I cannot have respect for their choices in this. They have chosen to punch women in the face in front of the world.

Well you might wish to be kind and not call them Male, but you certainly cannot call them Female.

Because they have Y chromosomes so ......... non-women? Still can't compete against XX females.

Absolutely no reason why they couldn't continue boxing as men.

Women with DSDs can and do participate in female sports because they are women.

Men with DSDs should not participate in female sports because their sex was incorrectly assigned at birth.

To all reasonable intents and purposes XY does equal male. Where it does not, the individual concerned is most likely to be very feminine in appearance.

I do not think this is the case here.

They won’t have had periods, I do not think it was a surprise to either.

Both males with a DSD, most likely 5ARD.

And I'm more than happy to wholeheartedly apologise if a cheek swab determines them to be female.

YANBU

Male with a DSD.

Someone I know has put a huge Facebook post about XY doesn’t matter because of changes in fish - it’s frankly ridiculous

That was doing the rounds about 8/9 years ago. It hasn't become any less stupid with age.

Their bodies are male & I suspect at least Khelif didn't know for a long time & that must be a hard thing to come to terms with.

Wouldn't have an issue calling Khelif 'she' if that's how they still feel.

However - they can both get the Fuck out of the women's boxing ring.

XY=male

I think Knelif has been handed a really shitty deck.

It must have been traumatising to find out at 11/12 years old that a significant part of how you identify yourself and what your future will bring, was wrong.

Khelif was socialised as a girl, and will according to culture and social norms have probably been foreseeing having a baby at some point, getting married, etc

Finding out about having a DSD would have been very very difficult.

Khelif does know about this diagnosis though, it would have been evident by age 15 at the latest when normal puberty did not start, when none of the usual changes happened, this is a professional athlete who will have undergone a huge number of medical assessments, physio, blood tests for all manner of reasons over the years, who will have been examined by different medical professionals who will have identified discrepancies. Every time they enter the ring and punch a woman in the face, with the full knowledge that they have an unfair advantage they put a woman at risk of serious injury and they take away an opportunity.

I know it's not fair at a human level that their own dreams were dashed by this diagnosis, but that does not give them the right to repeatedly take those dreams from the women unlucky enough to be put against them in a match.

It won’t have been a surprise. As teenagers, they will have hit puberty and instead of growing hips and boobs and getting periods, their voices dropped, their feet got big etc. I would think the Imane at least had to struggle with significant facial hair. I think for Imane that must have been a really difficult time- but it was ten years ago.

Then they are playing elite sport, being tested, checked for optimal nutrition, best training regime to fit them etc.

Do you think no one noticed?

They knew. And went ahead anyway.

Absolutely!

If they had androgen insensitivity then they would not have make advantage in spite of the high testosterone levels.
But the levels be must be drawn somewhere and I believe that it should be at the chromosome level for absolute clarity.
It does mean that some DSD individuals will be denied the opportunity for elite sports success. But while that is a shame for them, with the categories as they are, to protect women's sports overall.

These threads bring about the worst. Khelif is a female, born female, female organs. Produces a lot more testosterone but so be it. She is still a woman.

If Khelif has XY chromosomes, which I think is overwhelmingly likely to be the case, Khelif is male. So no.

They're males with DSD.

Agree with everything you say and safety is key, however even in non contact sports why should a woman lose her spot to a mediocre man - fairness is also important.

And it may feel unfair that a person's DSD means they can't win at competitive sports (they can compete in their own sex class but would be unlikely to beat their elite male athlete counterparts) - but hell many of us have physical conditions that mean winning in competitive sport is not possible.

By the way, the IOC has confirmed that they have seen the tests because they replied to the letter sent with the tests.

The IOC has been shown to have lied about this.

The issue is, that the IOC also then threatened the IBA about GDPR law about sharing the test results with them. And also reminded the IBA that they were no longer responsible for the Olympics Boxing in that reply.

The OIC have no policy that directly relates to boxing after devolving responsibility for policies about any male athletes with male pubertal advantage competing in the Olympics to the international organisations.

Here is a little of the history.

From what I gather, from the Nature article I keep posting on all the threads (but am on my phone so can’t access it to post) is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the late 90s they removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Then in early 00s they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

Then in 2015, a campaign group including Ivy/Mckinnon and Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review. The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation.

The announcement by Budgett from IOC was along the line of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion at all costs is our aim.’

That is where we are now.

The IOC have excluded the IBA from organising the Olympic boxing and left a fucking gaping loophole where they prioritised inclusion above the safety and fairness for female athletes. They knew that this was an issue, and they ignored it.

Why do you think that Bunce said that considering all this information is already out there in the public sphere?