To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

They are both biological male with undeveloped male sex organs.

A man without a penis is still a male. I'm sorry for them both to have been born with DSD and I understand that everyone thought they were female, but puberty has revealed their true sex. Male.

Nope. Not always. Do a bit more reading.

Very rarely. If these two XY people had CAIS I'm pretty sure we'd know about it, there wouldn't be so much obfuscation.

Genotypically this is so.

What people with XY chromosomes are not genotypically male with a body formed around the production of small gametes, even if those gametes are not ever produced? to be clear this requires testes or testes tissue (streak testes).

None of us are surprised, are we?

If this was all a Russian conspiracy against the Algerian boxer because they beat a Russian boxer, then why was the Taiwanese boxer also banned by IBA?

It’s clear that men with this condition are being sought out for these sports, this is why it needs clarifying now.

Everyone I know who thinks they are a woman are people who also think that men putting a dress on also makes them one. Someone I know has put a huge Facebook post about XY doesn’t matter because of changes in fish - it’s frankly ridiculous.

@TheKeatingFive Attached. Basically the IOC and the IBA don’t agree. There’s lots on the BBC but it’s differing interpretations of fact and undisclosed test results.

Also CAIS doesn't fit what we're seeing here as testosterone levels are much lower in CAIS individuals (or that's my understanding).

Testing concluded that these athletes have significant advantage over females, which would fit with a male DSD rather than CAIS.

Clownfish, I assume.

And they wouldn't look so obviously masculine. Their bodies have responded to testosterone, so they are not CAIS or PAIS.

Boxing in the Olympics has been shown to be a mess here.

Their criteria is female passports?? There are countries where you can get that without any hormone treatment etc.

DSD athletes (like Semenya) have to be on medication to compete in athletics events such as 400m, and 800m. How can there be stricter criteria for running than for a sport involving punching people?

Cos. Reasons ....

It is really telling when you start to think about the distractions of the media that the focus is on the Algerian boxer and not the Taiwanese boxer.

Then you realise, those who do so are politicising the country's oppression for their own political gain. Using emotional manipulation.

What about the female boxers from Algeria that have had their opportunities lost because of this male boxer? What about the female boxers who have have put their futures at risk of significant injury to even get to this point?

When you realise just who is completely ignored here, you realise the misogyny of this approach.

Male

What evidence do you have that either of the boxers have female organs?
With XY chromosomes and natural virilisation it would be highly unlikely that they have a womb or ovaries, although a blind ended passage that is mistaken for a vagina is possible.

It is much more likely that they are XY individuals with a DSD, possibly ( although not definitely) 5-ARD like Semenya has.

People with 5-ARD have ambiguous genitalia at birth and internal testes. However, at puberty the testes release testosterone at male levels which causes a typical male puberty with increase in strength and musculature. At this stage the testes may drop and the ambiguous genitalia become much more male with the penis growing.

DSD athletes (like Semenya) have to be on medication to compete in athletics events such as 400m, and 800m. How can there be stricter criteria for running than for a sport involving punching people?

Indeed.

You do know that the only reference point the IOC are using here is passports, right? That they've done zero testing.

The IBA on the other hand have tested these athletes, overseen by the CAS. Twice. Neither athlete appealed these results. Neither athlete has offered to do an independent test to put this whole thing to bed.

You have to look at what's actually going on, instead of blindly following who you believe to be your 'tribe'

I don’t need to see test results. The videos showing them training, relaxing, walking show make movement patterns. Men have different movement patterns because men and women have different physiologies.

it’s also why the accusations of racism grow tiresome. Black men move like men, black women move like women. It’s got fuck all to do with skin colour.

Honestly this isn’t right. It would seem likely these are men who suffer from dsd, Google it if you don’t understand it, who were assigned female at birth.

dsd. Or intersex is about 2 percent of the global population. It’s highly likely both individuals knew before they even took up boxing. They wouldn’t have periods for example.

the issue isn’t they identify as female. It is biologically they are male, and they are in a contact sport with women which makes it very dangerous for the women, as they cannot compete and risk much more serious injury than they would if boxing a female opponent.

"Dr. Ioannis Filippatos is a Surgeon, Sport Medicine Doctor, and Ob/Gyn Specialist, with over 25 years of experience at the well-known REA Hospital in Athens, Greece, where he is also a shareholder. REA Hospital is certified by the Swiss Approval International as one of the best hospitals in the world since 2016 and is valid until 2025 He has an extensive and certified knowledge of medicine in all areas."

https://eubcboxing.org/presidents/

This man confirmed that he had seen the laboratory tests, from laboratories that are certified to international standards. He is an IVF specialist. He is also the President of the European Boxing Confederation.

Do you think that he would know how to accurately read the tests? Do you think he would put his whole career in jeopardy if this was an error or a lie?

Do you think that the European Boxing Confederation is also corrupt?

What about the World Boxing Organisation?

Do you think all three organisations who have confirmed these results are corrupt?

Why do you think the BBC has ignored the other Boxing federations that have seen the tests and confirmed these male athlete's status?

To be pedantic, DSDs are a collection of different 'differences' or 'variations' of sex characteristics.

It's not one condition.

Nobody knows what DSD these boxers may have, although they have apparently gone through a male puberty, which is where the advantage has come from. Testosterone has virilised them.

Oh I forgot about clownfish. That changes EVERYTHING. 🫠

In response to this and everyone else claiming you can't answer the first question without answering the second: we can discuss disallowing women with DSD from participating in female sports without calling them male; especially females who are not trans, were assigned female at birth, and have always lived their lives as women.

How?

If any of this was true then I'm sure the test results would be used to prove it.

Have you seen the test results? Or is this just conjecture and 'be kindism'?

They both have XY chromosomes and high levels of testosterone. They have height and long arm advantage too. I think it probably came as a shock to Imane to find out she's biologically male as she presents as female external genatalia and has been brought up as a female. Neither of the boxers should be allowed to compete in the female category though it's just not safe for their competitors.