To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

They are undoubtedly male.

The misogyny of the IOC and its supporters is an utter disgrace. They are deliberately putting women ar risk.

If any female is injured I hope in years to come people face criminal charges.

XY is male.

I might be ill informed but I have read that sports federations in certain countries scout for DSD kids to present XY individuals (males) as females for sporting advantage.

The 2016 Rio women's 800m Gold, Silver and Bronze were 'won' by 3 African DSD males. The athletic association concerned have shut this avenue for cheating down.

When Amani wins tomorrow, boxing may well be forced to, too.

You can be XY though and not respond to testosterone so not go through a male puberty. There was a person with a DSD explaining this in an article I read yesterday. And the there are those with a DSD, XY who do go through a male puberty. But I don’t think it’s been disclosed exactly what type of DSD there is or indeed if there even is a DSD regarding the two boxers. So greater transparency of the tests and results is needed.

Male.
DSD possibly but not certain.

Boring update to my boring observation that Reddit is taking the exact opposite stance on this story.

Have tried to change a few minds on this on various places on reddit, I got immediately banned for life from "gendercynical" after a single post. Not much luck on other sub reddits either, I mostly got the "but corrupt Russians" response, until today when I think I have been shadowbanned so no one can see my posts across the whole site.

I only joined Reddit because I'm too male to be loitering on MN. But it really made me realise what a valuable platform this is in terms of free debate. Meanwhile I might have to go back to twitter.

But do they have swyer syndrome or 46 XY karyotype? There is an important difference I think.

When they were tested, it was confirmed they had 1.XY chromosomes and 2. a sporting advantage

The specifics of any DSD (which is not confirmed) cannot be stated due to privacy

This means they were not likely to have either CAIS or Swyer syndrome, because they have physical signs of having gone through male puberty - male muscle development and physique.

CAIS - do not go through male puberty, produce testosterone, but do not have receptors that allow testosterone to actually work
Swyer - do not go through puberty at all unless medically treated with HRT, because they have no sex organs - no testes, no ovaries

You honestly think that if those country's Olympics committees were going to try and sneak through men as women that they wouldn't try to make them look more feminine? You're looking at androgynous women. People keep saying that sex is biological and people should present how they wish but now you see two women with short hair and androgynous features and you immediately see men? Do you not see your hypocrisy?

It is vital to state here that it has not been confirmed that these individuals have XY chromosomes. This is still in contention and only suggested by the Russian based boxing committee.

No the IOC confirmed it was a DSD issue when they had to issue a correction to a press conference statement

Re reds under the bed...

Dr Ioannis Filippatos - the (Greek) president of the European Boxing Confederation, also a Sports medicine and obgyn specialist - has seen the results and agrees that a male karyotype and physical advantage were both found in both boxers.

The IAB used an independent lab to test these athletes.

They confirmed they were ineligible to compete in the women's categories.

Your mud slinging is not effective.

We are not looking at androgynous women at all - we are looking at men.

Try watching the Emma Hilton video. You might learn something.

... which means it can't be either swyers or CAIS, btw.

I agree it is complicated and we dont have all the facts. But one thing that I have not heard mentioned is that male and female babies in the womb are exposed to different hormones - I have heard reference to estrogen features, which makes faces develop differently for girls. Both of these people look very male in their facial features. Hard to identify as a baby I guess, but as they grew, surely that would have been obvious?

It's not complicated.

We do have the facts. We have confirmed scientific tests.

These are men, with male advantage and should not be in the competition.

What they look like is irrelevant.

Accusing me of mud slinging is an irrelevance.

You're looking at two masculine looking women and calling them men. You're ruining your own arguments about "why do people need to transition? Why can they not just be feminine men??" (And vice versa) through this. The press conference regarding the tests was a nonsense. The majority of people here are on the wrong side of this.

And the world-leading fertility doctor who agrees that they are both male? Is he lying, or just a really bad world leading doctor?

Here we go again! So much information, across so many threads, and still we get uninformed opinions like this 🙄

Do you mean Dr Filippatos? Because I think it's worth calling into question anything from that press conference, yes.

They're not 'masculine' in terms of gendered appearance. They're male in terms of sexed appearance.

Don't you understand the difference?

Hello, I'm perfectly informed thank you :)

So which is it - is he lying, or can he not tell the difference between a male and a female?

Have tried to change a few minds on this on various places on reddit, I got immediately banned for life from "gendercynical" after a single post.

A TRA subreddit.