To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

Has there ever been an elite athlete with Swyers syndrome, I would have thought that the specific challenges to that condition would actually preclude them from being an elite athlete?

Some of us believe in the rights of men to beat up women in the name of sport. That's clearly the case.

If I supported the inclusion of everyone with an F on their passport, I'd be supporting the right of trans females (i.e men) in women's sports which I vehemently oppose.

I've explained and restated my position numerous times on this thread.

That's my understanding too

I read something that suggested a person with Swyers syndrome would be unlikely to be an elite athlete anyway, but that could have been gumph. What was consistent across all sources was that they would look very feminine and would have no physical evidence of virilisation at all. Like CAIS.

These two boxers are too masculine looking to be either CAIS or Swyers in my opinion.

I think that when I read the IBA statement, they were careful to note their decision covered two parts.

First one was the XX / XY description.
Second one was the statement around physical advantage.

I think/hope that this is an indication that they would not exclude males if they showed no sign of virilisation at all, if those athletes even wanted to compete.

You believe sport should be segregated on the basis of sex. But you also think we should not call athletes with XY chromosomes males.

How do you think we will achieve sex segregation without referring to sex?

I thikn World Athletics criteria seem very rational.

Athletes with:

an XY karyotype and
have ≥5 nmol/L testosterone and
do not have androgen insensitivity

Are not eligible for the women's category.

yes. For the moment that 'do not have androgen insensitivity' is vital.

They are probably male, but even if they don't have a penis, they are so clearly advantaged over natural-born women - and pose a risk to them that I don't think they should be allowed to compete. There should be chromosome and testosterone checks for all those wanting to compete as women at an elite level or in contact sports.

A "genuine vagina" would likely mean that XX chromosomes had done their job, and she'd be female. But it would seem that "she" is XY and the "Y" chromosome didn't do it's job in fully developing a visible penis and testes (though the testes must exist internally if "she" has gone through male puberty). Her testes don't make her less of a woman, they make "her" a man.

Language matters - choosing to live as a woman is one thing (whatever that means) and we can respect that decision, but choosing to compete in women's sports is actively seeking to gain unfair advantage in the circumstances.

Many posters who support Khelif will say "but she's not trans", and then they'll say "even if she's XY she's lived as a woman so she should be allowed to compete as a women", ignoring the male biology which confers advantage - this is exactly what transwomen athletes want too, so if we go along with the notion that Khelif is a "woman" (in this context), then we're soon at a point where we're forced to accept that "transwomen are women"; they're not, they're men.

Ah, ok @ailicis . I misunderstood, as you seemed adamant that it’s ok for these two to compete.

So is your take on it, that we need to draw attention to the problem with these athletes hitting women without referencing their sex? These boxers shouldn’t be competing with women at the Olympics, as they are ineligible everywhere else, but we can’t use words to explain why?

To allow inclusion of male people with a DSD that includes virilisation of their body and not male people with a transgender identity is then purely based on emotional reasoning. In fact, it is discriminatory to support one and not the other based on the evidence that is now released.

And emotional reasoning has already been shown to allow harm to female athletes while prioritising male athletes through their inclusion in a sports category that was created to protect the needs of female athletes for fairness and safety.

Sports are won on on bodies. We cannot base discrimination legitimately on emotions and emotional histories.

So do I and I really wish she stops hitting women before something even more awful happens.

As for Imane’s vagina, I’m shocked you’d ask about something like that. Since you have, I will say I have no interest in discussing it.
Imane’s power and reach are not related to the possession of a vagina. They are related to male puberty which Imane has very evidently experienced.

@nietzscheanvibe nice to read a reasoned reply thanks. I agree trans are a different category altogether and those born men remain men however they dress, live or despite any surgeries.

I've just read that there are around 40 DSDs. In terms of sport, and competing in women's sports, it is largely irrelevant which specific one either of these men have if they have XY chromosomes. Obviously, it makes a difference in their personal and medical lives, how they were raised, how they choose to live their lives, and so on - but in terms of sports, they are men.

The significance of language.

Female boxers are disqualified for having physical advantages over female boxers.

vs

Male boxers are disqualified for having physical advantages over female boxers.

Or ....

Two female boxers are being told that they should not compete in the female boxing category.

vs

Two mae boxers, with male physical advantages, are being told that they should not compete in the female boxing category..

or...

She is being excluded from competing with female boxers because she has a medical condition that gives her advantages.

This one above is completely ridiculous because it means that people immediately think 'what the fuck... that is not right. ' versus

He is being excluded from competing with female boxers because he has a medical condition that gives him advantages.

My understanding is that Swyer Syndrome has a high incidence of osteoporosis- not exactly conducive to a career in boxing.

Many (most?) of the DSDs have associated health conditions that make it hard to be competitive in your own sex class.

Swyer is xy but with vagina/uterus and non functional ovaries.

De la Chapelle syndrome is xx but has a penis and testicles.

Both are infertile.

Whether you count these individuals as male or female depends on whether you are going on karotype or presentation. Frankly, arguments could be made for either. Socially I'd say Swyer is female, should go to female prison, female wards etc, but technically are still male.

Certainly with De la Chapelle, they appear male AND undergo male puberty.

It's an interesting discussion but it has no relevance for these two boxers, and the likelihood of anyone with Swyer syndrome which in the Olympics is tiny and could be determined on a case-by-case basis by the courts.

Yes Sir! Thanks for the suggestion, even though your comment is just as offensive… *heads over to X

There are still a lot of people who don't like women boxing. In fact I would say it was a majority view worldwide, and possibly in the UK too.

It's macho, it's violent, it's dangerous, it involves strength and power. None of these attributes are traditionally 'feminine'

So there are people who are especially happy to see women who choose boxing as a sport to be punished for the crime of not being feminine enough and taking on a 'manly sport'

They think it's great that these women can be beaten up by a man under the pretence of inclusion and kindness.

So some of the Reddit content reflects this view, which can be quite gleeful in it's tone as women are 'put in their place'.

@user1471538275 if you think womens boxing is bad then dont watch UFC. It's barbaric watching females beating each other to a pulp.

There's literally no such thing as male in their testosterone levels. There are averages for males and females.

Erm. Whit?

There is a range for female testosterone levels and a range for male testosterone levels. They do not overlap.