To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

Assuming the chromosome tests are as seems likely why are people so invested in having XY (male) individuals in a ring fighting XX (female) individuals? I genuinely don't get it?

All this crap about how unfair it would be to stop them competing if XY with male puberty advantage totally ignores the effect on women they fight and women they have displaced. Not to mention the fact that they could still choose to box competitively in the mens category if good enough.

Women are denigrated because they're not feminine enough. They're also denigrated for not wanting men to beat them up in a boxing ring.

Plus, they told to get closer to their male opponent, because they're not reaching enough, they're not strong enough, they don't train as hard, they're weaker!

As patterns go, it's pretty blinding.

It's not as if she's in there smashing fuck out of every opponent and she's lost plenty to women in the past.

Ah yes, exactly what you want to see in elite women's sport.

Fuck all those fantastic female athletes, let's flood the place with crap men.

If she has a genuine vagina etc would you still call her male due to the chromosome issue?

If this is a male with a DSD, they will not have a vagina. Though they may have something that looks like one prior to puberty.

There is a significant reason for using very clear and precise language.

In regards to Serena and Fatima, this was sexist negative discrimination. They were female people being judged on whether they looked 'feminine' enough to be in the sports categories that they were competing in. They did not have any male physical advantage coming from a male puberty.

They were subject to sexism, negative discrimination that was illegitimate. There was never any reason to discuss their competing.

And, they were never excluded officially from any competition for not being 'female'.

In regards to these two male athletes, describing them as 'male' which is their genotype, with the specific 'with male pubertal advantage' accurately describes the basis that they are being subject to legitimate discrimination. Based on their 'sex'.

Continuing to describe them inaccurately as 'female' because that is how they 'feel' or because that is their historical background but does not accurately describe their material medical status, leads to significant confusion as we are seeing. You are continuing this confusion, all the while you are also expressing your disapproval and making moral judgements of other who make different choices in their language to you.

But, in comparing Serena and Fatima the way you have is a false comparison.

And in doing so, you are effectively erasing their negative sexist discrimination.

Sigh. I have. Feel free to look down the thread.

To have male level of testosterone like they do they must have internal testes. They cannot have a vagina.

The post was about what organisation would be taking over administration of boxing for the Olympics in the future, not about the WBO statement specifically.

It wasn't just sexist discrimination though was it? Part of it is racial discrimination also. There's actually been a paper published on this exact thing.

Haha I'm so sorry, it's difficult when there are people making these arguments with straight faces 🤣. My sincere apologies 🙏

If a human has XY chromosomes, or has benefited from male testosterone during puberty then they should not be punching people who haven't. It's pretty basic.

Maybe this will help. If there is no ambiguity about their XY chromosomes, even with a difference of sex development, they have a male genotype.

You are confusing body parts which is phenotype with the over all category which is genotype.

Even those with complete androgen insensitivity are male by genotype. And they should be specifically excluded (as with any other Male DSD that does not produce / process testosterone) with clauses in the policies. Therefore they are only relevant as per those exclusion discussions, because they are currently the only male people to be included in some policies and these should be a the benchmark policies.

Isn't Khelif's record something like 40 odd wins & 9 losses? That's...that's not particularly normal for someone who doesn't look like a particularly good boxer 🤷🏼‍♀️

Haha I'm so sorry, it's difficult when there are people making these arguments with straight faces

I know have been caught out by parody accounts and posts plenty of times I thought it would have more weight if I did it totally deadpan

I guess it depends on what a vagina is defined as!

With something like Swyers then by most definitions it would be a vagina. It will be made up of the same cells, function in the same way and lead to a uterus via a cervix. It will be indistinguishable for sex. But the uterus will lead to non functioning ovaries.

In the xx equivalent often their physiology is so externally male and 'normal' that their karotype is issued not discovered until infertility investigations.

In those cases then yes I think xy can be male with a vagina and xx female etc a penis. This doesn't mean it's a free for all in body parts with any karotype, but that there very very exceptional cases. That doesn't mean they can pick and choose which sex they are for sports though.

Sure.

But these discussions are not revolving around the 'race' of these male athletes.

In Serena, Fatima, and these two male athletes, discrimination based on race would always be illegitimate.

You are the one trying to leverage racial discrimination here when the only discussion is about the legitimate discrimination based on sex.

Swyers is technically a female DSD though, no?

I believe it was posted yesterday on a thread, maybe even this one, that Khelif losses were heavily skewed to the beginning of their career.

They have barely lost in the past few years.

But you do support the inclusion of everyone with an f on their passport?

Because that’s all the IOC has said. As in, they know it’s a DSD situation, and everyone is welcome to compete, regardless, as long as passport says F.

By contrast 3 Boxing authorities and several doctors and journalists say these two are male. As do many sports people including a champion boxer (female, black, gay, on gender conforming). And they also say it’s very dangerous for the women.

So you are going with men with an F on their passport can compete in women’s sports.

The boxers in question have been tested and have XY chromosomes, and have been declared male, and ineligible for the female category.

You're the one using derogatory terms for someone with a DSD, totally unnecessary and highly distasteful, imo.

'Lady organs', FFS.

Male boxer

Well we can all believe what we like. She's into the final for her weight category for the Olympics and I wish her well in life.

Individuals with Swyer would technically be excluded by the IBA XX/XY rules- however there is no chance that the two boxers have Swyer because of the degree of virilisation. To go through puberty people with Swyer have to have HRT.
IMO people with Swyer and CAIS could be specific exceptions to the XX/XY rule because they don’t have the advantages of a testosterone driven puberty ( although CAIS is overrepresented in elite sport, maybe due to natural height advantages or lack of menstruation) - however I can see that these exceptions may muddy the waters.

I agree. And it's the difference between chromosomes, and an SRY gene, as far as I'm aware (only from reading these posts).

It might muddy the waters when it comes to making proper rules, but for people like me this is the crucial sentence

however there is no chance that the two boxers have Swyer because of the degree of virilisation

They simply wouldn't have looked male in the way they do.