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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:22

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

OP posts:
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29
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/08/2024 13:12

Very simply, because what would be the point? The IBA are not going to admit wrongdoing.

Because the court could find in their favour? All they have to do is have the test redone bingo their karyotype is clear. Or are you impugning the Court of Arbitration here too?

WomaninBoots · 07/08/2024 13:12

ailicis · 07/08/2024 13:10

Let's not pretend language doesn't matter. Serena Williams and Fatima Whitebread might have a thing or two to say in response to you..

Eh? Would they? I'd love to have a chat with either of them. Do you think they might be reading this thread?

TheKeatingFive · 07/08/2024 13:12

I just wanted it to be known that I do not support male's participation in female sports under no circumstances.

Yet when there is reasonable concern that there are males participating in female sports (beating women up, no less) your reaction was not 'let's get to the bottom of this asap and no fighting women until we are sure'. Your reaction was 'oh no nasty misgendering of this poor lady'.

And that speaks volumes. About what's actually important to you, compared to what you say is.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/08/2024 13:13

Halfaninch · 07/08/2024 13:11

I wish people would leave her alone. Sure, she's got more testosterone and xy chromosomes but what are you meant to categorise her as? A freak of nature rendering her neither male nor female? How cruel. She has the lady organs I believe and is a female. It's not as if she's in there smashing fuck out of every opponent and she's lost plenty to women in the past.

Er no. Just male will do given the XY chromosomes and testosterone levels. Oh and the penis. They don't have "lady organs"

TheKeatingFive · 07/08/2024 13:14

ailicis · 07/08/2024 13:10

Let's not pretend language doesn't matter. Serena Williams and Fatima Whitebread might have a thing or two to say in response to you..

What relevance do they have to this discussion. I have never heard that either of them were disqualified after sex testing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/08/2024 13:14

I wish people would leave her alone. Sure, she's got more testosterone and xy chromosomes but what are you meant to categorise her as? A freak of nature rendering her neither male nor female? How cruel. She has the lady organs I believe and is a female. It's not as if she's in there smashing fuck out of every opponent and she's lost plenty to women in the past.

This is like a compendium of all the worst Facebook arguments. If you believe that Khelif has high testosterone and a male DSD, they are male. Neither you nor I know what "organs" Khelif or Yu Ting have.

The "losing to women in the past" isn't relevant.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 07/08/2024 13:15

Halfaninch · 07/08/2024 13:11

I wish people would leave her alone. Sure, she's got more testosterone and xy chromosomes but what are you meant to categorise her as? A freak of nature rendering her neither male nor female? How cruel. She has the lady organs I believe and is a female. It's not as if she's in there smashing fuck out of every opponent and she's lost plenty to women in the past.

Sad that the same care and consideration isn't given to the female boxers being punched by two people who likely know they shouldn't be there.

TheKeatingFive · 07/08/2024 13:15

She has the lady organs I believe

Why do people feel so empowered to repeat made up stuff? How on earth could you know that?

HipTightOnions · 07/08/2024 13:16

Halfaninch · 07/08/2024 13:11

I wish people would leave her alone. Sure, she's got more testosterone and xy chromosomes but what are you meant to categorise her as? A freak of nature rendering her neither male nor female? How cruel. She has the lady organs I believe and is a female. It's not as if she's in there smashing fuck out of every opponent and she's lost plenty to women in the past.

Is it Groundhog Day?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 07/08/2024 13:16

Xy and more testosterone, poor woman. That's the point though xy plus testosterone being used by the body does equal male even if incorrectly assigned female at birth due to an abnormality caused by a dsd at birth.

Still waiting to hear what these definitive tests were to prove the boxers are female.

ailicis · 07/08/2024 13:16

TheKeatingFive · 07/08/2024 13:14

What relevance do they have to this discussion. I have never heard that either of them were disqualified after sex testing.

Seriously?

Halfaninch · 07/08/2024 13:16

Post proof that she has a penis then. There isn't any.

AlisonDonut · 07/08/2024 13:17

Halfaninch · 07/08/2024 13:11

I wish people would leave her alone. Sure, she's got more testosterone and xy chromosomes but what are you meant to categorise her as? A freak of nature rendering her neither male nor female? How cruel. She has the lady organs I believe and is a female. It's not as if she's in there smashing fuck out of every opponent and she's lost plenty to women in the past.

Maybe they would if he stopped punching women in the face?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 07/08/2024 13:17

ailicis · 07/08/2024 13:10

Let's not pretend language doesn't matter. Serena Williams and Fatima Whitebread might have a thing or two to say in response to you..

Wasn’t aware there was any ambiguity over what sex they are..

WomaninBoots · 07/08/2024 13:17

Language does matter anyway. Which is why I advocate for using precise, truth-based language, not language chosen to pander to feelings at the expense of clarity.

Not sure what Serena and Fatima have to do with it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/08/2024 13:17

Post proof that she has a penis then. There isn't any.

So? This isn't about penises.

Datun · 07/08/2024 13:18

ailicis · 07/08/2024 13:10

Let's not pretend language doesn't matter. Serena Williams and Fatima Whitebread might have a thing or two to say in response to you..

Bloody hell.

Do you understand that the sexism behind claiming Serena Williams or Fatima Whitbread are men, is exactly the same sexism behind shoehorning men into women's sport because women don't matter?

spannasaurus · 07/08/2024 13:18

Halfaninch · 07/08/2024 13:16

Post proof that she has a penis then. There isn't any.

Post proof he has female genitalia then. There isn't any.

TheKeatingFive · 07/08/2024 13:18

ailicis · 07/08/2024 13:16

Seriously?

Yes seriously. Why are you bringing them into this discussion?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/08/2024 13:18

Wasn’t aware there was any ambiguity over what sex they are..

It's the kind of stuff people are saying to Nicola Adams. Racist and misogynistic.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 07/08/2024 13:19

Halfaninch · 07/08/2024 13:16

Post proof that she has a penis then. There isn't any.

They could both post proof as to what sex they are and put this nonsense to bed.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 07/08/2024 13:20

They were accused of not being feminine. These boxers are being accused of not being female. There is a massive difference

Datun · 07/08/2024 13:20

lady organs

😄

TheKeatingFive · 07/08/2024 13:22

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 07/08/2024 13:20

They were accused of not being feminine. These boxers are being accused of not being female. There is a massive difference

This.

If people can't understand that distinction then they need to have a serious word with themselves.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2024 13:24

Halfaninch · 07/08/2024 13:11

I wish people would leave her alone. Sure, she's got more testosterone and xy chromosomes but what are you meant to categorise her as? A freak of nature rendering her neither male nor female? How cruel. She has the lady organs I believe and is a female. It's not as if she's in there smashing fuck out of every opponent and she's lost plenty to women in the past.

These are male athletes. Or have you too forgotten Lin?

"It's not as if she's in there smashing fuck out of every opponent and she's lost plenty to women in the past."

But they didn't win', 'they have been beaten', what does it matter, type arguments really show a complete lack of understanding about competitive advantage.

The male athletes losing are losing because they when you considered their physical advantages, if they were elite level male athletes at the same level of peak performance as the female people that they were losing against, they would not have lost. They are not at any where near the level of exceptionality of the female athletes they are competing against.

In many instances, there performance rates as mediocre when compared to male athlete peak performance.

To be very clear, if the male athletes losing to those exceptional female athletes were as good and as fit and performing at their full potential as those elite athletes, they would have won.

In fact, several male athletes are competing in female events and setting records that female people may never break. Those male athletes are in almost comparable performance level as the exceptional female athletes, but their physical advantage is coming into play, so to speak.

Consider the physical advantage to constitute x% performance advantage over all. To achieve the same level of exceptionality of the female athletes, their performance will = peak female athlete performance + x%. Hence setting records that may not be broken.

If the female athletes are beating the male athletes and those athletes have male pubertal advantage, then they simply are not as good as the female athlete. In fact, if those male athletes with x% pubertal advantage tied with the exceptional female athlete, then by comparison, the female athlete is better.

So this point too is irrelevant for competition. But. Not for safety.

What you are supporting is, in effect, very dangerous for female athletes due to male people have on average 160+% more punch power than female people (that is not athletes, that is just the general population) and many other advantages. In fact, part of the punch power is derived from skeletal leverage that males have to give this power that female people do not have. And bone mass and density that is greater in male people than female people.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

This above is the review of 13 studies from Dr Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg and it shows these advantages, if anyone wishes to check for themselves.

To be clear. This bone difference means stronger bones!

Female people have been proven to have bones that are more prone to breakage, particularly in the face. And they are more prone to concussion and brain damage due to their more delicate brain fibres. This has been studied and is now shaping Rugby guidelines for female participation, as an example.

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

To those who use the 'but they didn't win' what do you believe will happen to a female with those more delicate bones and brain fibres when hit with punches that are 160+% harder than other female boxers?

A game of women's rugby at Swansea University

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women

Research has found women are at a greater risk than men and the effects are more severe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

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