To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

The IOC eligibility test is does it say female in your passport. That's it.

Caster knows full well they are male, that they had advantage in sport. Caster went to the ends of the Earth to continue that advantage, and deprive women, who are already way down the list of priority when it comes to elite sport, of any hope of winning medals and money and status.

ALL the evidence points to Khelif having the exact same DSD. Not a woman who happens to have XY chromosomes. Because they would not look like Khelif.

Which is why appearance does count when trying to ascertain, with deliberately limited information, what's going on.

Under normal circumstances, it would be enough that these two athletes won't take another test, that the media have been told to shut the fuck up, and that everybody's Facebook and social media seems to be flooded with patently untrue propaganda, for absolutely everyone to know what's going on.

Quite apart from anything else, that should make everybody seriously concerned.

But, and I genuinely mean this because kindness is obviously an attribute to being encouraged, could you drag your eyes off the two male individuals at the centre of this, and focus on the women, for one fucking nanosecond.

Women who have worked all their lives to this one end, who are not only being deprived of their rightful money, kudos, medals, sponsorship and recognition, but are having to limit their own stupendous, elite performance lest they be beaten up by individuals being allowed to fight in the wrong category.

Can you imagine getting to the Olympics, the bloody Olympics, the pinnacle of all sport, and having quit in case you're injured for life - or killed.

Because the IOC is suddenly and secretly sanctioning mixed sex boxing.

Why are you continuing to spread deliberate misinformation? The women have both past eligibility tests.
NO. No they've haven't. The misinformation is from you.

We all know what those eligibility tests were. Their passports. Which cam easily be misaligned with biological sex.

So on that basis, any man who dan find a way to get an F on his passport has free rein to beat up a woman according to the IOC.

Isnt that so great and progressive 🙌

for the IOC.

Which consisted of having 'female' in their passport.

That is all the 'eligibility' test needed for female boxing for the IOC. Do you think that having female in a passport is a strong piece of evidence given that Semenya has 'female' in their passport and is out there telling the world that their testicles don't make them any less of a woman for sport?

But, and I genuinely mean this because kindness is obviously an attribute to being encouraged, could you drag your eyes off the two male individuals at the centre of this, and focus on the women, for one fucking nanosecond.

This.

How sad for that woman who has been raised and living as a person weighing less than 50kg to have her dreams dashed like that. Maybe it would be fairer and kinder for there to be a weight section in the passport the IOC could refer to?

(ETA I totally agree with you - I realised written word doesn't always come over as I mean it!)

But, and I genuinely mean this because kindness is obviously an attribute to being encouraged, could you drag your eyes off the two male individuals at the centre of this, and focus on the women, for one fucking nanosecond.

I don't believe any of those censuring language and trying to support male inclusion in female boxing will do this.

Just like they cannot accept the blunt description that they are supporting male violence against women.

Because, 'kindness'.

45X/46XY https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/45,X/46,XY_mosaicism

Individuals with this mosaic who can be described as female are likely to have symptoms similar to Turner syndrome and not likely to be elite athletes or tall. If the majority of the cell makeup is 46XY you're basically looking at an almost normal male, in terms of physical advantage at least, genetalia may be abnormal, by the sounds of it.

Phenotypic expression is complicated because of the proportion and locations of the different karyotype through the body. This will depend on how early in foetal development the error in cell division occured. Decisions on male advantage could be done case by case. With transparency. Or if the person wanted medical privacy they could choose a different life path than elite sports.

46XX/46XY https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/46,XX/46,XY

Chimeras from two zygotes merging or a very unusual mosaic process... this seems extremely unlikely as an explanation for two elite athletes in the same competition. Again characteristics, sex classification and male advantage would depend on which tissues and body systems have which karyotype.

Interesting cases and conditions but the balance of probability still tips strongly towards XY with 5-ARD based on the physical evidence.

Thank you for giving examples though.

How sad for that woman who has been raised and living as a person weighing less than 50kg to have her dreams dashed like that. Maybe it would be fairer and kinder for there to be a weight section in the passport the IOC could refer to?

I just think it's a privacy issue. There don't need to be tests because people aren't going to lie, are they? People shouldn't speculate ever, even if a boxer looks 100kg in a 50kg fight they might just carry weight well. No one has any business knowing about it or talking about it.

I have a question for the posters who believe that simply having a female passport means you can fight in the female category.

Lets imagine that Tyson Fury discovers that there was a mistake on his birth certificate and he was incorrectly recorded as female and using this birth certificate he obtains a female passport.

Are you all happy for him to box against females? If not, why not? He has a female passport so qualifies as female under the IOC rules.

I know it’s the mail , but this is interesting about the 3 runners also with high testosterone /dsd.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-13717971/Imane-Khelif-boxing-gender-row-Olympics-Caster-Semenya.html

The samples taken for the IBA were not taken in an independent manner, which has been admitted by the IBA. They say the results were sent to independent labs - BUT the samples.did not follow independent protocols to ensure that the samples taken from the women boxers were indeed those sent to labs.

Even the Daily Mail says this - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13711269/IBA-press-conference-Olympics-category-foot-shooting-just-witnessed-gold-medal-performance-writes-MIKE-KEEGAN.html

I know some on MN love any excuse to be transphobic, but these women are not trans. They are most probably women. Or there is an outside possibility they are women with DSD.

The rhetoric is pretty awful frankly. And there is so.kuch echoing of deliberate Russian disinformation it is painful.

The facts are - two different bodies disagree over the eligibility of two competitors. The one body, who disqualified them from their competition, has not provided clear evidence - collected in an impartial and best practice way to prove their assertion. There are also known issues with that body.

Can you confirm what the eligibility test was? Who did the testing, which labs were involved etc? How the results were confirmed?

Have you heard of logical fallacies? No one has said this. I and others have just highlighted that there are serious issues with the claims made.by the IBA.

No one is saying these male people are transgender.

Stop misrepresenting the argument.

EsmeSusanOgg

You insist several times that these two boxers have passed eligibility tests.

What tests?

Have you heard of logical fallacies?

Have you heard of analogies or thought experiments?

You insisted both the boxers have passed eligibility tests but those tests were what sex does their passports say they are so what is the difference between these two boxers and Tyosn Fury with a female passport.

These two boxers could easily settle this whole issue by having independently conducted chromosome tests (via cheek swab) and releasing the results.

I am sure that the reason they have not done this already is because they know, for damn sure, that the results will come back as XY and they will have to accept they are not eligible to box in the female category.

They have provided clear evidence to thr althletes, who have chosen not to appeal. They have not provided it to uou. And that’s just fine.

I do not support the inclusion of men in women's sports..

I know some on MN love any excuse to be transphobic, but these women are not trans. They are most probably women. Or there is an outside possibility they are women with DSD.

Yes that's an extraordinarily convincing theory when neither of them challenged the disqualification which for Yu Ting meant losing a bronze medal.

Literally no one has mentioned trans. You're not paying the slightest bit of attention are you. Just mouthing off.

And if the method of testing was so suspect - why didnt the boxers appeal to the CAS?

Yep.