To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

Ultimately some people believe that they have the right to talk about the evidence they see with their own eyes.

There is legitimate doubt about these individuals sex. That comes from testing, not physique. So it's not gratuitous discussion of people who have given us no cause to question. It is the evidence of our own senses to add to the evidence that's already in the public domain.

For me, women's rights to safety is too important to be pissing about with 'oooh but it isn't kind to call them men'. We need accurate language to protect women and that's more important.

Well that's the point I'm trying to make- the controversy and discussion should not be whether or not they are male or female! This isn't a trans case and we are not privy to the fine details of their medical history. The discussion and controversy should be whether or not a female (not a trans female) with probable DSD should be permitted to compete in women's sports. We don't need to deliberately mis-gender them without having all the facts to have this discussion.

Well that's the point I'm trying to make- the controversy and discussion should not be whether or not they are male or female!

It is though, that's the whole and only point.

Discussion of how male their physical appearance is is only occurring because of the complete squeamishness of actually revealing any truth about their particular genetic make-up. The observation of the appearance of the individual and the information that it seems they have tested XY is all we have to go on. In the absence of being able to rely on honesty in the organisation that is supposed to protect women's Olympic sport.

Noone, at least noone reasonable, is just randomly pointing at other women boxers and going "gosh she looks manly too". There's a reason these athletes were pulled out for testing in the first place and I doubt its just cos they don't wear enough make-up or because they are muscular.

The answer is to test everyone and have transparency with the results.

Caster Semenya is a male with a male DSD.

The whole point is that we don't know their Karyotype is simply XY. The statements from IBA are intentionally ambiguous and no one has released the tests themselves.

Noone, at least noone reasonable, is just randomly pointing at other women boxers and going "gosh she looks manly too".

Creepy misogynistic men on Twitter and Reddit do this, and they think that settles it. This isn't about Khelif's "femininity". It's about Khelif's clearly male body.

The public have been made aware of Semenya's DSD and specifics of their test results though. Khelif's case is very different.

There are a lot of people commenting who don't know the whole of what the IBA has said about the tests.

Do you mean your first comment, or your second - posted one minute after the first?

Maybe focus on being a bit happier in your own lives (which as much as you'll protest you are, you clearly aren't) and then you won't be so obsessed with others?

Utterly, utterly pathetic.

I prefer your second comment. A weird incoherent slash at no-one in particular and everyone - for discussing whether people with male chromosomes should be allowed to punch women in the face, as sport.

i think the statements from the IBA are very clear, they concluded that the boxers had significant average when boxing women.

Also clear is the lack of an appeal from the boxers

The public have been made aware of Semenya's DSD and specifics of their test results though. Khelif's case is very different.

It's different in that it's not confirmed which DSD, if any, Khelif has. Just that Khelif is XY.

The only reason we know about Caster's js that it was disclosed as part of the court case.

You are the one bringing in 'trans' here.

You are the one who is also censuring others who are stating clearly that those athletes with a clearly understood and without mosaicism XY genotype are male.

What is it about this that you disagree with some world experts on? Have you gone to them to censure their language too?

I understand how you feel about this.

There’s no language to describe someone who is female having distinct physiology because of their DSD without using male terminology where it’s appropriate. I’m going to try hard-

So Caster Semenya who claims to be adamantly female, discusses her internal testes. Testes is a male gonad. How can Caster refer to them without using a male word?

The boxer pictured jogging has distinct knee formation that isn’t seen in females. I was astonished to recognise that knees are gendered. It’s to do with Q angles and where the muscles anchor.

These boxers have physiology that is not female and they are using it to punch the heads of women whose female physiology puts them at risk. The current rules on helmets actually put women at risk, particularly when being punched by people with physiology that is closer to the male pattern than the female.

I tried. I really did.

Great summary @KeirSpoutsTwaddle

Can you list some other karyotypes they could be perhaps. And what the physical manifestations would be. Get specific. Vague "it might be complicated" handwaving does not educate or advance the discussion.

We would not need conjecture if there was some transparency and less squeamishness around medical details and using correct language. But it is not unreasonable to think have a strong hypothesis that these althetes are XY. Every level of complexity beyond that gets more and more vanishingly rare.

@Helleofabore

"And you think that this person's condition that is even rarer than the potential DSD of these male athletes is relevant to this situation why?"

I didn't say what my karyotype (not "condition", very charming) was and it is unlikely it is rarer than whatever karyotype or diagnosis Khelif may have or receive is. Which we don't know.

Nicked from the other thread. Here's what the amazing Nicola Adams OBE has to say this morning:

https://x.com/nicolaadamsobe/status/1821060955108766186?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

Morning ,now where did I leave my gas and lighter^^

I didn't say what my karyotype (not "condition", very charming)

Lots of people have congenital medical conditions, it's not any sort of personal judgement 🙄

That has only happened AFTER Semenya has spent a decade winning events.

And the only reason any one outside the officials and Semenya know is that Semenya took the IOC to CAS because Semenya did not want to reduce Semenya's testosterone because they no longer placed first. And Semenya said it made them ill.

And I agree. Athletes with 5ARD should never have been allowed to compete in female events. Semenya should have always been excluded. It was not even fair to Semenya to include them in the first place.

And by the way, the most recent research shows that male athletes with 5ARD have no hormonal reason why they cannot compete equally, ie at the same performance level, as other male athletes. It had been thought that another hormone prevented peak performance, but this has been found to be untrue.

So, no. Just like Semenya, the organisations who are keen to include Khelif are using the same 'spin' that they used for Semenya. Exactly. Even down to the story of disadvantages in their childhood.

As you say, Semenya's story is now known. Why do you think Khelif's is any different and why should the public have any trust in those using this same PR spin?

I think that is the whole point the only evidence being presented that these boxers are female is that they were identified as such at birth but we know errors are made due to Dsd. It is currently just as false to confirm these boxers are female as male, the only organisation to have done testing has stated they are biologically male. Why are the boxers not releasing the results? why are they not having further tests done to prove they are female? Why are the IOC saying but passport says f we don't need anything else?

Can anyone who has watched the fights say that they are exceptionally gifted boxers with a lot of skill or are they winning solely on longer reach and strength?

Do you or don't you believe that a male who has been through any degree of virilisation at puberty should be included in the female protected category of sport?

Thanks for this. I have no issue in discussion their eligibility to compete in female sports.

Caster's case is different. They admit themselves that they consider themselves a "different kind of woman". If Khelif was ever to arrive publicly at this realisation, and if we were privy to details of her medical history which confirm everyone's suspicions, then I might be less bothered by these personal attacks on her. Until then, I'd say it's fair to exercise restrain and kindess when discussing her case.

If the IOC didn't have such a ridiculous and unsafe rule based on personal identity, they would have testing in place themselves.

Until then, I'd say it's fair to exercise restrain and kindess when discussing her case.

I'm more concerned about being kind to women being punched in front of millions by a male, humiliated and mocked and then gaslighted about it.