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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:22

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/08/2024 10:29

I searched reddit last night too & it's overwhelmingly in their favour, it's like an alternate reality! I couldn't bear to read much cos so much of it is sneering & repeatedly disproven conspiracies about the (albeit corrupt) IBA motivations.

There are more open discussions on the Blocked and Reported subreddit, which I recommend. If you're not familiar with the podcast, it's definitely worth a listen. Jesse Singal and Katie Herzog.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BlockedAndReported/s/mSqRKghHqq

Caerulea · 07/08/2024 10:32

TizerorFizz · 07/08/2024 09:21

This row was always going to happen in women’s boxing. I don’t watch women boxing and I don’t find it entertaining. Others do but this difficulty was always going to happen.

The Russian aspect of testing does matter. They are disruptors. We know this. So it’s alarm bells about them too.

Whilst I can see where the Russian interference thing is coming from, it doesn't make any sense & doesn't fit with their usual shitstirring which isn't using faces & names & orgs to spread discord. It's just too obvious. They do it by flooding social media with bots using misinfo AND info - it's about confusion & sowing doubt.

What actually fits with them is the pro Khelif DELUGE of content from seemingly random accounts. Why? Cos it gives ppl two options - kindness or Trump et AL. People have to pick a side, there's no inbetween, no grey area. It's good or bad & it's incredibly effective cos 'the truth' is having to spend all it's time firefighting ('no one thinks they are trans!', 'they probably WERE living as a female!' etc etc).

Not to mention the fact that in terms of a State attack on Algeria would be weird - they are allies! It would make more sense if it were against Taiwan, but not Algeria.

So I do think there's probably Russian interference, just not how ppl think it is.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2024 10:43

Mayorq · 07/08/2024 09:04

I don't think it's about ignoring facts, or at least it isn't for me, I think it's an example of how difficult it can be to wade through often contradictory reporting from usually trustworthy sources being combined with the actions of governing bodies that have credibility issues (and I agree completely with those who are pointing out that the IOC should never be used as the grounding of an appeal to authority argument) concerning a very relevant issue but in a niche enough sport which most of us only dip in to every four years.

I'm not arguing against them being male, and I'm very much GC and anti males in womens sport, but like some others I'm finding getting a grip on the objective facts on this to be somewhat elusive and that's partly due to not being able to put faith in many of the main actors and then also partly due to contradictory positions or behaviour of the actors as outlined above.

As you say the athlete opted out of the CAS process and that would appear to be quite damning, I also think the where there is a concern the IOC should have been in a position to document and state forcefully that they have conducted X,Y and Z test and can state objectively that there are no concerns etc.

I would question why having failed a test the IBA allowed imane to continue competing for 4 bouts, they should have suspended them pending further testing and things like the statements of the president on parlour and their own history of corruption is what gives me pause for thought in being definitive in my own mind at to what's going on

Edited

I also think the where there is a concern the IOC should have been in a position to document and state forcefully that they have conducted X,Y and Z test and can state objectively that there are no concerns etc.

Yes. But this is the crux of the matter.

IOC have a general policy of inclusion above fairness. They stopped sex testing back in late 90s under pressure from campaign groups for exactly this purpose. To allow these particular male athletes, those with DSDs with male virilisation to compete. Then due to Hubbard, they changed their policy again, ie after the changes in 2018 demanding in a few athletics events that these male athletes with DSDs (after Rio 800 m ) reduce their testosterone. This 2021 change declared it was sporting federations responsibility to set policy, not IOC. And IOC can then maintain their stance on inclusion (and sporting federations left to deal with the mess).

Therefore, IBA set the policy. IOC then announced IBA not organizing the 2024 Olympic boxing and this left female boxing without the protection that the IBA set up. Because the IOC declared it was IOC rules = inclusion.

Therefore the IOC don’t care that these athletes are male. The passport says female and that is all the IOC wants to know.

document and state forcefully that they have conducted X,Y and Z test and can state objectively that there are no concerns etc.” doesn’t work in light of the disparity between IOC and IBA regulations.

I understand that all this sparple about IBA and its president and the false statements from the IOC re them not getting the results etc is confusing the issue. And yes, there had to be a better way for the IBA to do testing (but look at dope testing, it often leads to disqualification after events too).

I was trying to point out that it really is simple when you cut through the emoting and the politicking.

The IOC are wrong. They are wrong on multiple counts of prioritising inclusion above female athletes physical safety and removing their equal opportunities. They are also wrong because as Semenya points out, Semenya and Mboma etc have been discriminated against directly now by IOC in the unequal handling between sports too.

The IOC is struggling here but relying on the hyperemotional messaging that is clearly convincing those who either have no understanding of the conditions or the sports and the IOC have framed any female boxer as being ‘the problem’ and now worthy of abuse and derision.

I never assumed you and I disagreed, it wouldn’t even matter if we did. I was just trying to make it simpler for you to cut through all the emotional reasoning etc.

If someone agrees that no male with pubertal advantage should be competing in female sports, it really is simple.

And for every sad back story of a male person that should be excluded, there will be female athletes with similar backgrounds that are being harmed because those males are included. Not many, in fact pretty much none, posters citing these sad back grounds ever mention the female athletes who have been harmed. I call that misogyny under the guise of inclusivity.

SidewaysOtter · 07/08/2024 10:44

Caerulea · 07/08/2024 10:23

I searched reddit last night too & it's overwhelmingly in their favour, it's like an alternate reality! I couldn't bear to read much cos so much of it is sneering & repeatedly disproven conspiracies about the (albeit corrupt) IBA motivations.

And if I have to see one more person equate JKR & Trump..

Reddit has long had form for banning anyone critical of gender ideology, so it’s not surprising that only one view is being heard.

TizerorFizz · 07/08/2024 10:45

@WomaninBoots Thats exactly why the IOC should do its own testing! I’ve already said it’s been a problem since the 60s. Here we are 60 years on with the same issues! They need to grasp this issue for their competition. Stuff what others do. Boxing worldwide is so split with different world champions in men’s professional boxing has been a joke for decades. Who honestly believes what anyone says? They all contradict each other. They need clear tests and published results. That might be upsetting for some athletes but it’s vital to be fair to all and transparent. We possibly have neither situation at the moment.

Im a huge fan of equestrian sport where finesse matters and many women are amazing at it.

Caerulea · 07/08/2024 10:46

@SidewaysOtter I know, it's miserable. I stay out of subs where it's likely to come up & stick to houseplants, gaming & feeding my health anxiety ;)

Helleofabore · 07/08/2024 11:12

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines. at the request of it's author.

I agree.

I wonder how much of the confusion comes from language translation. Including the press conference.

When speakers are translating their own thoughts into English from Greek (as in the case of the Doctor) words may not be as strong as they should be, or may be much stronger than how a native English person would speak.

Peakpeakpeak · 07/08/2024 11:14

WomaninBoots · 07/08/2024 10:22

Perhaps. But in the current climate on this issue just searching for the truth is disruptive. The collective meltdown the west is having over sex and gender is like handing the Russians a great big red button they can push, on a golden platter. Without them even having to make anything up.

Yep. If we're going to talk about Russia, that's part of this too.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2024 11:19

TizerorFizz · 07/08/2024 10:45

@WomaninBoots Thats exactly why the IOC should do its own testing! I’ve already said it’s been a problem since the 60s. Here we are 60 years on with the same issues! They need to grasp this issue for their competition. Stuff what others do. Boxing worldwide is so split with different world champions in men’s professional boxing has been a joke for decades. Who honestly believes what anyone says? They all contradict each other. They need clear tests and published results. That might be upsetting for some athletes but it’s vital to be fair to all and transparent. We possibly have neither situation at the moment.

Im a huge fan of equestrian sport where finesse matters and many women are amazing at it.

I think most of us on this thread agree with you.

YES! bring back 'Sex Screening' and if a swab to screen shows something that needs to be investigated, do further testing.

They removed the testing in late 90s specifically to include these male athletes with DSDs. Any DSD. While it might have been uncomfortable for CAIS male athletes who are not excluded from the female category at this time, it did provide protection otherwise.

LadyGrinningSoul8517 · 07/08/2024 11:20

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LadyGrinningSoul8517 · 07/08/2024 11:21

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ArabellaScott · 07/08/2024 11:21

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Eh?

OP posts:
ailicis · 07/08/2024 11:22

Shroedy · 06/08/2024 21:18

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

I am undoubtedly a woman and currently pregnant with my second child. I am not XX. What I will test as is not consistent from cell to cell and my karyotype is therefore complex.

The 2022 test was "inconclusive" (and Khelif was allowed to compete in 2023). It therefore seems unlikely that, even if we take the statement from the IBA official at face value about XY, that Khelif has a straight forward karyotype. The details of the karyotype matter to whether Khelif should be considered male or female (with a DSD, most likely), as do hormone levels (which were apparently not tested, according to IBA) and how a body responds to those hormone levels, when it comes to considering whether there is an advantage in competing and how the IOC or any other body should classify Khelif as a competitor.

This is a lot more complex and there has been limited information disclosed with what has been disclosed subject to a lot of vested interests. But that doesn't get in the way of black and white declarations that the facts and implications are clear.

I'm going to bump this important response since most of you are conveniently ignoring it.

TheKeatingFive · 07/08/2024 11:24

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Yet another emotional outburst with no reference to any facts or details about what's going on. 🙄

We're totally over these 'you're all big baddies' posts from people who can't even be arsed to figure out what's actually happening.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/08/2024 11:24

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Eh? This is nothing to do with trans.

If you see transphobia report it. MNHQ are very quick to delete transphobia.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/08/2024 11:24

It's already been answered several times. The IBA timing is explained in the article by Alan Abrahamson. There was no protocol for dealing with XY boxers in 2022.

Runningupthecurtains · 07/08/2024 11:25

SidewaysOtter · 07/08/2024 10:21

They are both biologically male, with all the advantages that brings, and neither belong in women’s sports.

No one can choose how they’re born and raised, but they can choose whether or not they cheat at sport.

Part of me really hopes they both get to the final so that the women’s boxing ends up being between two men. Just to show the world even more than ever what a massive fucking farce sport becomes when we put “inclusivity” over sporting fairness.

They are in different weight categories so can't fight each other.
This would be 'unsafe'.
They will rob two women of gold medals.

ArabellaScott · 07/08/2024 11:25

A small point - Re the 'IBA is Russian' thing - the pres is Russian. The Vice P is Ukrainian and the other is Serbian. The Directors are from all around the world.

https://www.iba.sport/about-iba/organizational-structure/iba-board-of-directors/

Board of Directors

International Boxing Association

https://www.iba.sport/about-iba/organizational-structure/iba-board-of-directors

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 07/08/2024 11:25

The 2022 test was "inconclusive" (and Khelif was allowed to compete in 2023). It therefore seems unlikely that, even if we take the statement from the IBA official at face value about XY, that Khelif has a straight forward karyotype.

No, because that was not the finding of the 2023 test.

Which, remember, Khelif didn't appeal

ArabellaScott · 07/08/2024 11:26

ailicis · 07/08/2024 11:22

I'm going to bump this important response since most of you are conveniently ignoring it.

What does it have to do with XY boxers fighting women, though? In that respect, I don't see how it's important.

[I mean, the poster claiming to be XY but a mother - the rest of the assertions are discussed elsewhere]

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GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/08/2024 11:27

I'm going to bump this important response since most of you are conveniently ignoring it.

@ailicis it's not important. I addressed it further down the thread.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/08/2024 11:27

Maybe focus on being a bit happier in your own lives (which as much as you'll protest you are, you clearly aren't) and then you won't be so obsessed with others?

Right back at you, why do you feel the need to drive by and insult women here on multiple threads? It's not obligatory to read every thread and you clearly have no idea about this issue.

LadyGrinningSoul8517 · 07/08/2024 11:28

The fact I only left my comment a few minutes ago and have already been responded to three times tells me people don't like the uncomfortable truth 💅💁🏼‍♀️

ArabellaScott · 07/08/2024 11:28

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Emotive, ad hom attacks really don't illuminate the arguments at all.

Evidence, and reason. That's how you make an argument. Not just insulting people.

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nietzscheanvibe · 07/08/2024 11:28

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Climate Change Hide GIF by Barbara Pozzi

This about sums up your approach.

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