To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

Yep, I can match you.

But I can’t say decades at this time. And fuck, I hope that I am not still here in five years saying the same things as it will then be decades.

I don't think it's about ignoring facts, or at least it isn't for me, I think it's an example of how difficult it can be to wade through often contradictory reporting from usually trustworthy sources being combined with the actions of governing bodies that have credibility issues (and I agree completely with those who are pointing out that the IOC should never be used as the grounding of an appeal to authority argument) concerning a very relevant issue but in a niche enough sport which most of us only dip in to every four years.

I'm not arguing against them being male, and I'm very much GC and anti males in womens sport, but like some others I'm finding getting a grip on the objective facts on this to be somewhat elusive and that's partly due to not being able to put faith in many of the main actors and then also partly due to contradictory positions or behaviour of the actors as outlined above.

As you say the athlete opted out of the CAS process and that would appear to be quite damning, I also think the where there is a concern the IOC should have been in a position to document and state forcefully that they have conducted X,Y and Z test and can state objectively that there are no concerns etc.

I would question why having failed a test the IBA allowed imane to continue competing for 4 bouts, they should have suspended them pending further testing and things like the statements of the president on parlour and their own history of corruption is what gives me pause for thought in being definitive in my own mind at to what's going on

You mean ‘this’ Semenya…

"My internal testicles... don't make me less of a woman."

“Caster Semenya was one of three males with a DSD who cheated women out of medals during the 2016 Olympics in Rio.”

“Those who pointed this out were slammed as "racists," with a particular campaign of harassment against Lynsey Sharp, who teared up during an interview after she lost out on a bronze medal - due to the lack of sex verification testing by the IOC.”

https://x.com/womenreadwomen/status/1820531031222759807?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

And just another way to highlight that using precise and accurate language and saying Semenya is male so should always have been excluded is not ‘hateful’ as some
posters try to position it.

Who knew that the first quarter of this century would see people who pride themselves on intellect and honesty nodding along to a male saying that “having testes doesn’t make them any less of a woman” from a male who self published an image of them as a teenager swimming on the beach with no top on with their school class. What teenaged girl does that?

I would question why having failed a test the IBA allowed imane to continue competing for 4 bouts, they should have suspended them pending further testing and things like that

My understanding is that they felt they needed to verify the test and under their own rules they could not do that until the athlete was on neutral ground and preparing to compete. There is info on this in the IBA statements.

For me it comes down to this ...

The IOC has been crystal clear that they've relied on

I'm struggling to get people to answer tbh, keep having comments removed or being ignored. Possibly being new and having low "karma" means people aren't seeing posts idk.
It's funny because if you post against the consensus here on MN (on whatever topic) people almost jump on you to engage and probe your thoughts which I like, but I'm not seeing that so far on reddit.

Over there they seem to be going with the "corrupt russian" angle a lot. I don't think they've got as far as the thought - what if the tests are correct and the athletes do have male advantage? In that eventually I think most posters would wait to be told what their opinion on the topic should be.

Relied on passports only for verification. Yet multiple countries allow sex marker on passports to be changed.

The IOC knew that there was considerable doubt about these boxers eligibility. Yet they did absolutely nothing to look into it.

Those are facts beyond question. Which are totally damning on the IOC and cast massive doubt on their safeguarding for women.

Sorry pressed send too soon there - split post

That's the one. But I still have intelligent friends who insist 'she' is a woman and 'she' was victimised for just looking different.

This row was always going to happen in women’s boxing. I don’t watch women boxing and I don’t find it entertaining. Others do but this difficulty was always going to happen.

The Russian aspect of testing does matter. They are disruptors. We know this. So it’s alarm bells about them too.

I think there's a difference between being educated and articulate and being genuinely intelligent.

However, what we're seeing here is 'context collapse'. They have a set of sources that have told them this. They have not come across (or have been taught to dismiss) sources that say anything different. You have a wider set of sources that have shared your view - you are literally being told a different story.

Which is why the failure of journalism is such a huge part of the problem here.

Shaped your view not shared your view

But 'the Russians' does not apply to the CAS and the WBA who also stand by the testing.

'The Russians' does not explain why neither athlete appealed the test results.

'The Russians' does not justify neither athlete taking a test now to put the matter to bed.

It is also notable that the IOC have never once suggested those tests are incorrect.

So, just maybe, 'The Russians' is not actually of any relevance to the question of whether these athletes are male or female

Why would she take another test? The Olympics has let her compete? This is an inevitable consequence when women compete in strength events. The Olympics could do its own testing. They don’t. There’s disagreement over the results that are known so as usual, it’s a mess. Personally I’d get rid of the sport until Olympic testing is sorted out. They’re got 4 years but this type of issue won’t go away. It started with the Press sisters and goes on and on and on.

The IOC should verify the sex of all athletes entering the women's category. It's not just strength events where it matters. If it doesn't matter there isn't a female category (see equestrianism).
IOC have let women down badly for a generation with their stance on sex tests.

MRA and incel types absolutely love this issue. They love that a man is punching women and stealing their medals and getting away with it. They love that women can't do anything about it and if they try are being labelled as haters.

Reddit banned a huge amount of its feminist subreddits and any group for women which objected to the presence of men, even if they were about breastfeeding. They allow really nasty reddits about extreme porn and misogyny to stand. They have people such as Aimee Challenor as moderators. (Look up Challenor if you haven't heard of him, his father and the people he chooses to live with.)

Why would she take another test? The Olympics has let her compete? This is an inevitable consequence when women compete in strength events. The Olympics could do its own testing. They don’t. There’s disagreement over the results that are known so as usual, it’s a mess.

Because there is considerable disquiet about the idea of men beating up women in the name of sport and it's the least they could do in the circumstances.

Only someone who doesn't give a flying about women's safety would dispute this I feel.

And again, why didn't they appeal the original tests (both of them)?

It's a cop out to say boxing should be gotten rid of. That may be true, but you have to face up to the fact that the IOC have done NOTHING to safeguard women's safety here. They have sanctioned the possibility of women being hit by men on the world stage. And plenty of people have cheered them on in this. It makes me sick tbh.

MRA and incel types absolutely love this issue. They love that a man is punching women and stealing their medals and getting away with it. They love that women can't do anything about it and if they try are being labelled as haters.

Exactly. It's awful.

Slight thread detail, but sort of on topic - amongst all the talk of people appearing to have lost their ability to think critically and examine their sources, can I plug the book “The Irrational Ape” by David Robert Grimes.

It’s a very good book on critical thinking and is not heavy going. Shocking in places when it talks about Harvard students who seem unable to fact check and how different the world might be thanks to Soviet officer Stanislaw Petrov (look him up) who most likely prevented all-out nuclear war in 1983.

They are both biologically male, with all the advantages that brings, and neither belong in women’s sports.

No one can choose how they’re born and raised, but they can choose whether or not they cheat at sport.

Part of me really hopes they both get to the final so that the women’s boxing ends up being between two men. Just to show the world even more than ever what a massive fucking farce sport becomes when we put “inclusivity” over sporting fairness.

Really interesting, I'll check that out

This.

Perhaps. But in the current climate on this issue just searching for the truth is disruptive. The collective meltdown the west is having over sex and gender is like handing the Russians a great big red button they can push, on a golden platter. Without them even having to make anything up.

I searched reddit last night too & it's overwhelmingly in their favour, it's like an alternate reality! I couldn't bear to read much cos so much of it is sneering & repeatedly disproven conspiracies about the (albeit corrupt) IBA motivations.

And if I have to see one more person equate JKR & Trump..

If this is the IBA they define woman as XX and man as XY