To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

It is actually very simple.

Should any male person who has gone through any degree of virilisation, ie either processes testosterone if they produce it, compete as a female protected category of sport ?

Knowing that any degree of a virilised pubety delivers advantages, does it matter it is a male who has a DSD that virilises or a male with a transgender identity. Both have the advantages. Should either group be included?

This, of course, excludes male people who have never processed testosterone. Ie. Do not have receptors for testosterone or have only not functional streak testes.

When you remove all the emoting, it really is that simple. No details should be made public, it should be either eligible or not.

The issue is the IOC have been negligent here. They have prioritised inclusion over fairness and safety. They were up front in this in Nov 2021. There is plenty of back story to this mentioned already on this thread.

Oh well that wouldn't happen because they are different weight categories. One is welterweight and the other is featherweight. So if they fought each other it wouldn't be fair. 🤔

As best as I can understand it this individual (Imane Khelif) does seem to have a DSD

Where do you think you picked up that idea if the IBA are so unreliable? Khelif hasn't said that.

I don't believe that athletes competing in the Olympics have the right to privacy when it comes to what sex they are.

Khelif could have chosen not to compete in elite women's boxing if Khelif wanted privacy.

Just a reminder, the IOC have no policy other than if there is an F on the passport and they have a history of competing as a female apparently. From multiple press conferences now.

That is all they require.

People taking the IOC’s word over the IBA need to understand that the IOC don’t care. At all. Their policy is to include. So to them, it matters fuck all whether an error at birth in registering these athletes was made.

When you are judging which group to trust, that may well be the decider. The IOC lied about knowing the details - they were sent those. But ultimately they go by the passport, which will not have been changed since birth even if it was diagnosed as a pubescent child.

Why do so many people ignore these facts?

If you have a Y chromosome then you’re not female.

I don’t care if you have transitioned gender, not had a puberty, suppressed your testosterone. Or whatever else. Your not a biological female.

I get it. It’s shit. They were born like this. They didn’t have a choice. But neither did XX women. They were born like that too.

And don’t get me started on the interview. ‘Stop bullying me’. Sticks and stones mate, sticks and stones. The irony.

There have been governance issues with the IBA and in the past but they dealt with these in 2020. I found a statement the other day from the IBA about all the steps they'd taken to address the concerns of the IOC (I can't find it again now) but the IOC were still not satisfied.

There are claims that the IBA only tried to disqualify the two boxers after one of them defeated a Russian boxer but that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I've seen a claim that the IBA thinks the IOC's antipathy towards them is because they refused to disqualify a Russian boxer because they were Russian. There does seem to be a drive to create a narrative that the IBA has been corrupted by Russian influence; the BBC is describing the IBA as "the Russian lead IBA".

Who knows what the truth really is, whatever it is I don't think it's relevant to the issue of males with DSD's competing against women in sport.

I know that, I've been posting about it for days, but I was asking the poster who said she didn't really trust the IBA why she then thinks that Khelif has a DSD. Because that has only come in any sort of official sense from the IBA.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I feel like I have had the same dialogue for a week.

I know!

FOJN · Today 00:07

Within the last couple of days, I read that one of the IOC boxing committee used to be in the IBA. There was some internecine contretemps and he left. Boxing organisations wield a lot of power and have an awful lot of cash, they're notorious for letting people get rich.

They're a real brown envelope culture, right down to regional amateur organisations.

I'll see if I can find a story.

On top of the male/female issue.
If they (both of them) win, not only will their medal be tarred by this, but they still won't be able to engage in the "sport" as they are banned by three boxing organisations.
Its a pyrrhic victory at best as if they take this legally further they will have to out themselves.

I didn’t watch the match but saw the images this morning, and knowing this is a biological male fighting a biological woman, it made me feel really sick. There is one where the opponent is on her knees and Khalif’s arm around her neck and it is sickening.

I've been reading reddit instead of MN for a few days. It's really stark how different the stance is. Over there Khelif is 100% "cis female", has a dead cert defamation case against Rowling for calling them male, and apparently "UK so called feminists" (you lot) are just policing athletes femininity.
It's bonkers.

I think this is a really important point.

They will not be able to box in any IBA and I assume WBO bouts. What will they do? And if the Olympics doesn’t run boxing next games as they have said they won’t if they don’t find another organisation to run boxing and they don’t choose WBO, then there is nothing for them.

But then, hey, if the OIC run the games again in say 16 years time, maybe they will let these male athletes compete again. Showing again, as what usually happens, that they have undeniable male advantage shown by the fact they are competitive well beyond the age of the female age range for their sport.

I'll see your week and raise you years.

'poor Caster Semenya is a woman with naturally high testosterone'

Argggghhhhhhhh.

Underthinker, do they not think about the fact that for a case to go through, all it would take would be independent testing to show either way? They honestly think that these two athletes are not male?

That is bonkers. But hey; maybe tests 3, 4, 5, 6,7 and 8 done in the future gives them hope that the test result will change. Maybe every certified lab needs to do one, just in case.

I'm starting to believe there's a whole cohort out there who are not willing/able to do any actual thinking of their own.

All they can do is parrot what the 'right' people are telling them to think

I want to see them fight a trained male boxer in their weight category. Maybe then, they would understand why we object to men punching women.

Exactly this. DSD is very very rare. Also girls going into boxing in general is relatively rare. So it is definitely not a coincidence that two such people have been encouraged to be 'female' boxers.

Absolutely agree with this post

I would agree with Jon Pike on this one and not Bunce.

https://x.com/runthinkwrite/status/1821046307013763220?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

“Sadly bigdaddybunce here revives the ignoble tradition of Phil Liggett, the cycling commentator who was one of the leading apologists for Lance Armstrong.
I like Buncey's enthusiasm, but he's got this one disastrously wrong.”

I will never understand this line of thinking that individuals can't be wrong. Because what? They hold other opinions you agree with? How would that make them infallible.

No-one is right about everything. Switching off your brain and following someone's view blindly is just about the stupidest thing you can do.