To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

And people need to read the thread, and the many other threads on this, before commenting. It's getting a bit Groundhog Day, having to refute the same arguments over and over again.

Anyone justifying what is happening, in any sense, watching women being beaten by males and gaslighting other women that they should be happy about it, is beneath contempt.

Completely. It's embarrassing.

The individuals who have been the centre of the controversy are neither male or female- they are intersex.

Everyone in the world who has ever lived is either male or female, however ambiguous. There is no third sex, and people aren't sexless.

They're XY members of the male sex who have gone into a sport where they get to punch women in the face

Your post shows a level of misunderstanding about DSD's.

There are no humans who are half male and half female but there may be occasions when someone's sex is not obvious just by visual inspection. Further testing will reveal that they are either male with a DSD which affects males or female with a DSD which affects females.

Most posters understand the difference between karyotype and phenotype. No one is confused about the difference between trans and DSD's.

'Intersex' does not mean 'neither male nor female'. Most DSDs or VSCs are very unambiguously disorders/differences occuring in males or females.

A very, very small number of conditions mean that sex is truly ambiguous. The number of people with these conditions is vanishingly small.

Males with DSDs like 5ARD (Caster Semenya, and some other athletes) will have gone through male puberty and been virilised like a normal male. Although these are rare conditions, they obviously offer enormous sporting advantage.

And nobody thinks these boxers are 'trans'.

This

I am pointing out that you have used a derogatory slur in describing MN and other posters. I am not arguing with you when I point that out.

I think my reticence is the IBAs behaviour throughout.
You have people in senior roles maki g statements which are not backed up by the official IBA statements, which gives me concerns about wanting to have their cake and eat it.
They want to put out the story they want repeated on parlour, but don't want to be officially tied to that position, that's a concern .
the explanation of needing to retest seems odd from the outside from the perspective of usual doping tests which would never occur without a B sample for exactly this reason that you can have a false positive that creates unfairness on all parties if you can't verify it, but I'm happy to accept their might be reasons specific to sex testing that means you have to take the samples across a broad space of time but I haven't heard that being claimed yet.

🎯

They tested them and got the results back and tested them a second time to confirm at the first available opportunity. The results are not instantaneous. They couldn’t test any sooner under regulations.

This was all discussed yesterday in the press conference. Yes it was a shambles of a press conference, but this was explained by the Dr who was consulted to confirm the test results. He and his credentials were discussed at the start of the thread. Have you read the thread? There is plenty of information in this thread.

The details will always be ‘shrouded in secrecy’ because no one is legally able to release the details except with the athletes permission. Both country’s legal teams confirmed yesterday that the IBA was not allowed to reveal any more details than were released.

Three boxing organisations have seen and confirmed the tests. iBA, European Boxing Confedersfion and World Boxing Organisafion. The WBO is hoping to take over running the Olympic boxing. Why would they lie?

It was shown that the IOC received fhe tests. They had lied about that. Their letter confirming receipt of the tests was released yesterday. They confirmed that they did indeed receive the tests after all. They knew who the laboratories were and the results. They even threatened the IBA with legal action under GDPR for sending them.

Sure the IBA might be whatever you say, but are the other organisations also part of your accusation? Plus neither athlete took up the majority paid opportunity to appeal at CAS.

I believe it is not unusual to test twice for sex tests when they deliver results that are not expected the first time.

Yes. They are a shambles. They might very well be corrupt. Kremlov seems to be a poor public speaker. There are plenty of truth in what you say.

However, the Dr who consulted on the outcome is also a practicing IVF obstetrician / gynecologist who also has been a sports doctor. Why would he ruin his medical reputation for this? As he is the president of the European Boxing Confederation, why would he also ruin the credibility of that organisation if this was untrue information.

Both tests for each athlete was identical. Isn’t it a good thing to be careful about this?

Where’s the source for one of them having a penis?

There’s a great TikTok video about this from someone who clearly has followed women’s boxing for a long time, giving this decent credibility:

vm.tiktok.com/ZGev6EujV/

Every time the image is posted, the poster is abused by others who believe it should not be posted.

It is irrelevant anyway. The presence of testes that produce testosterone and having the receptors to process that testosterone is the key point for this particular issue - sport and whether those athetes should be included into the female protected sports category.

Yes. Someone may have a micropenis or other form of genitals, it's irrelevant really.

The key in this case is whether the person has gone through male puberty and thus has the great physical advantages in strength and speed conferred by T at puberty.

What about a link to an article so I can decide for myself? I’ve just spent 15 mins looking for a ‘female boxer with penis’ story and can’t find one. Unless there isn’t, in which case saying one has a penis is patently untrue.

Not something you want in your search history 😂

The picture I've seen I believe is fake (can't find it or I would send it). It shows a huge bulge in the penis area. Having watched her fights, I've never seen a visible bulge, and never seen a moving image with a visible bulge!

There is no DSD that results in a female with a penis so you won't find a story.

For once in my GC life I'm sitting on the fence on this one because i think it's got more nuance than the "should transwomen compete in female sports" debates (no.). I'm reading a variety of sources and opinions, but there are so many directly opposing claims that I don't feel that I have a good grip on the actual facts. As best as I can understand it this individual (Imane Khelif) does seem to have a DSD, and it appears that they were raised assumed to be a pheontypical female. What happened at puberty, and when/if anybody suspected anything other than normal female development I have no idea about, and I suspect the general public won't ever be told the full results of testing, let alone things like puberty development and what's in their pants - and I do think imane has the right to privacy in that regard.

It's clear that one organisation thinks that Imane has an unfair advantage, but also that that organisation doesn't seem to be one that is well trusted, so I'm not sure how much I trust the statements that they have given and the impartiality of their tests.

I do think it's raising an interesting question about if people with DSDs should compete in sexed category sports, if sex testing should be mandatory, and what counts as female or male sex in these rare cases of ambiguity. I recall fascinsting discussion lectures around identifying the sex of mamals with DSD in my biology degree, and the inconvenient truth is that in cases of DSD sometimes it really is hard to distinguish if an animal is male or female, even with extensive test results and examination, even with post-mortem examination - so I do think there is more nuance than is widely claimed by both sides of this one.

Having said all that, I'm tending toward the conclusion that Imane should not have been allowed to compete in the female category.

People who post links to the photos are also getting abused.

Just seen some clips from tonight's fight. Is it just me or is there something unsettling about the ferocity with which Khelif fights? Not controlled, but kinda wild & rabid - gaping mouth.

Ignoring the obvious reasons to find it uncomfortable watching that spectacle, I find their behaviour really unpleasant.

There is no DSD that results in a female with a penis so you won't find a story

True. Although 5ARD is known in some countries as 'Testes at 12' because an apparent girl ( albeit XY) seems to develop testes and a penis at puberty- because of their natural testosterone making the internal testes drop and the supposed clitoris enlarge dramatically.

This.

Just Male