To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

So no record of sex then until the certificate was issued?

What has his difficulty accepting the truth got to do with it? Would you allow a surgeon who had suddenly lost their sight to operate on you just because they were struggling to come to terms with a new reality?

Khelif knows he is male and it was his choice not to pursue an appeal against his disqualification last year because he knew the "gender test" results would be made public of he did. There were two tests carried out by different labs. He has taken a course of action to conceal the truth so that he can continue competing. How is that not cheating?

If the birth certificate was not issued soon after birth then where is the evidence that the child was "assigned female at birth" as previously stated?

Let's face it, much of the IOC narrative is pulled out of Mark Adams' arse.

Male.

By the way, there was nothing ‘pseudo scientific’ about my post. What part of XY chromosomes = male genotype do you find pseudo scientific.

I think activists often just parrot that line as shorthand for "female" so they are just claiming Khelif is female, there wasn't necessarily any formal assigning.

As well as being genotypically male the athlete in question appears to be phenotypically male!

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

I am undoubtedly a woman and currently pregnant with my second child. I am not XX. What I will test as is not consistent from cell to cell and my karyotype is therefore complex.

The 2022 test was "inconclusive" (and Khelif was allowed to compete in 2023). It therefore seems unlikely that, even if we take the statement from the IBA official at face value about XY, that Khelif has a straight forward karyotype. The details of the karyotype matter to whether Khelif should be considered male or female (with a DSD, most likely), as do hormone levels (which were apparently not tested, according to IBA) and how a body responds to those hormone levels, when it comes to considering whether there is an advantage in competing and how the IOC or any other body should classify Khelif as a competitor.

This is a lot more complex and there has been limited information disclosed with what has been disclosed subject to a lot of vested interests. But that doesn't get in the way of black and white declarations that the facts and implications are clear.

So -
Spotted when playing football outside with boys - not an activity permitted to 'usual females' in this society (and presumably not IK's 5 sisters)
Taken away to be trained as a 'woman boxer' by a scout who clearly understood that there was something 'very special' about IK
Birth certificate issued at 18 with sex as female
Starts competing as a woman, starts making money, which creates value for IK as can support family and gain status
Competes for country - high status in this role, but only whilst maintaining the fiction

I can see the 'why'

Not true. Both tests showed XY and the IBA stated that high testosterone levels were found. It's absolutely clear that they are male.

What on earth are you talking about 'must make me feel good'. I'm sorry but I've totally lost what you are arguing with me about.
A PP literally said she's surprised by Mumsnet as it doesnt reflect what she sees in real life.
I said it's because Mumsnet isn't representative of society as a whole.
You then questioned why I thought that, to which I said it doesn't reflect my experience either, and explained why, and you've attacked me for no reason whatsoever! If you think Mumsnet reflects society, good for you!

Sure. We can all have sympathy for these two male athletes. Not one, two.

It doesn’t change the issue being discussed though.

do hormone levels (which were apparently not tested, according to IBA)

They seem to also have been aware of high testosterone, although that wasn't what they were testing for in the mentioned tests.

'“The results of the chromosome tests demonstrated both boxers were ­ineligible,” Roberts said. He said he could not comment further after receiving letters from the ­Taiwanese and Algerian authorities that morning warning him not to disclose personal information relating to the boxers.'

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/06/taiwan-sports-administration-threatens-legal-action-over-gender-row-olympic-games

This insistence on hiding results is not helping. The issue won't go away.

It was probably high T levels that prompted the tests.

Yes or even later depending on the circumstances. If an elderly person wants to make pilgrimage for example (or any travel abroad) they might have been no need to have a birth certificate issued until that point.

It is what happened. The press conference, shambles that it was, did confirm this. The doctor, whose name I posted later in this thread who is the European boxing confederation president confirmed it was two tests.

If you want to see that the IOC prioritises inclusion above fairness, look for statements from DR Richard Budgett who acknowledged that male who has male pubertal advantages had unfair advantage back in November 2021, but they prioritised inclusion. And read the November 2021 gender policy from the IOC. All statements this last week centres inclusion.

There is evidence that she was socialised as a female/lived her childhood as a girl. This wouldn't have happened unless she was assigned female at birth.

What about his uncle who said he'd play outside with boys when it wasn't allowed for girls? That's evidence he was raised as a boy

There's a photograph. That could be anyone.

Thankyou for putting this so succinctly; I have failed to do so in a few discussions.

@ArabellaScott Births should be registered within: 60 days in the Sahara region of Algeria and 5 days in the rest of the country according to the Algerian government

I have photos of my ds in 'girls clothes' from pink t-shirts to borrowed princess dresses. He is still a boy.

That's a fair point actually, apparently he grew up in poverty so I assume clothes were handed down and passed on a lot