To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

From the BBC article interviewing Khelief's uncle:

"It was only through leaving her remote village to live with her uncle and her aunt that Imane was able to overcome social stigma and forge her career as a boxer.
The eldest of six sisters and one brother, she grew up in Ain Mesbah, a rural village where traditionally only boys would play outside, and girls would rarely leave their homes.
Imane’s sporting talent was discovered by a local boxing coach as she was playing football in the street with boys. The coach invited her to train at a sports centre, about 10km from her home village.

"Only BOYS would play outside
Sporting talent was discovered by a local boxing coach as she was playing football in the street with BOYS"

So not treated as a girl then

I'm disappointed you didn't answer a single one of my questions. But not surprised.

But no, I don't call everyone I disagree with alt-right. Depending on context sometimes I call them misguided. Sometimes I call them bigots. Sometimes they change my mind.

But people who behave in the manner I've seen a lot of alt-right people behave online, and with much the same talking points and epithets ("play with your rainbow flags"), remind me of the alt-right. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I'm not going to resolutely refuse to believe it just might be a duck.

Talent 'discovered by a boxing coach'

Hmmm so someone spotted an opportunity to make lots of money and pursued it.

IK did not seek out a career in boxing, but it seems he was exploited by those who saw an opportunity.

Yes that’s interesting, it would indicate she knew from a very early age, before puberty made it clear.

Males for sure. Probably with a Dsd

I find it absolutely staggering that people are trying to gloss over this

Me too.

And if they're also XX? Does that mean XX aren't female.

IOC won't allow that - they are in different weight classes, so it would be "unfair"

How the fuck do IOC boxing officials sleep at night?

Well if believing in basic biology makes me alt right who am I to argue

Also important to note that this was not when IK was young.

He has only been competing since 2018 (at 19years old)

When they were 'spotted' they were post puberty - a time when cultural attitudes about male/female activities in traditional societies are likely to be more strictly adhered to.

It would have been clear visually, and through the activities that were being permitted that this was not someone who was 'living as a female'

Look how smug the clearly male boxer is after reducing the obvious woman to tears

Unless it looks like a man and punches like a man and genetically tests like a man, when you will argue it could be a rare quacking pigeon?

So far in the poll:

982 votes - 18% think you are being in unreasonable to think the boxers are male @ArabellaScott while the clear majority of 82% agree with you.

Sorry what questions? So as long as they're male it's ok to repeatedly post crotch pics? Or is it only ok if they're male and they hit women? What about women that hit men? Can I repeatedly post crotch pics of them? considering the only person obsessing over non existent crotch pics is you I didnt think you were serious. Nobody has posted crotch pics so your question is irrelevant.

I have to be honest, I don't think crotch pics are all that relevant... so let's not get too bogged down.

They failed two gender eligibility blood tests and did not appeal. Evidence stacks upon evidence after that but the tests are the crux. They could have tests re-done and share results if they wanted... they could ask for the results of the tests already done to be shared.... but they would rather take advantage of a loop hole that allows them to compete in a violent contact sport despite this being unfair and dangerous to their competitors. They know this, they know it now and have known it for some time.

My sympathy is limited.

The women being hit feel like Imane is a male.

It was two tests actually. One to confirm the other.

And sorry, we are discussing whether these two athletes should be eligible to compete in female sport.

Whether they find it difficult to accept the material reality is irrelevant to whether they should be allowed to compete. Using clear language as to their sex, as proven by these two tests is important for understand the situation.

So, again. Whether they have found it hard to accept, both of these athletes knew definitively last year. Both of them made the decision the compete with full knowledge.

There is a difference between having sympathy for their situation and discussing the facts. Emotion will not change the facts. Sympathy will not change the facts. Using inaccurate and obfuscating language does change how the facts are presented to cause confusion and to gain sympathy for the male athletes and removed the sympathy for all the female athletes directly impacted, and those that may be injured by these athletes.

You can personally choose how you wish to describe these athletes. However, I choose not to follow your example. I choose to use precise and accurate language so that I can discuss the facts. Please stop with censuring my speech and other people’s speech to suit your own agenda.

XY = male. In every situation.

2018 is when that birth certificate was issued.

@InsomniacsUnite why keep saying this if it's not true? You must have read some of the approx 3000 posts explaining why it's not true?

It's extremely rare for it to be not true, but it is just possible and given how rare it is to be an Olympian, we should at least try to be accurate.

Facts

I’ve the only pics in now, watching the men boxing, with their bleeding faces.

no difference putting one of these men in with the women and allowing them to have at it.

“You're referring to opinion polls that talk about trans issues. This isn't a trans issue, it is very different, but many people aren't aware of that.”

”You've clearly also brought your own prejudices to the thread, your experience is different to mine and that's fine.”
”However, it is quite obvious that Mumsnet isn't representative of society as a whole, seeing as Mumsnet is majority female, and society isn't! So even if you don't agree that Mumsnet is notorious for being anti trans, and has quite strong feminist views, it doesn't take a PHD to realise it's not a representative sample of society!Why do you believe that the public opinion will be any different if it is a male with a DSD that gives pubertal advantage vs a male who has a transgender identity. The outcome is exactly the same.”

What prejudice have I displayed? I am not the one declaring people anti- anything. You are.

And yet, you can continue to believe that MN is not representative. That is your choice, of course. It must make you feel good. But it is false once people realise the truth and the implications of that truth.

Hence clear and accurate language is importance.

It is pretty standard for rural/off the grid communities in Algeria not to have birth certificates issued at the time of birth since there is no need for one unless the child ventures outside of the community and the need for a birth certificate or passport arises.

Thanks, that's useful. So it's common for a birth certificate to be issued at that age?