To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

Do you think it's possible that it might be quite difficult for her to believe she is male. She was told she was born a girl, raised a girl, told by family she's a girl, trained as a female boxer, told by coaches she is a girl, supported by her county as a woman, and dedicated her whole life to women's boxing?
Not to mention the huge cultural differences between us and Algerians, their views on trans, and also considering her religion and faith. God created her this way. You only have to listen to her speak to realise the huge cultural gulf between her and your average Brit, and why it might be very difficult for us to put ourselves in her shoes.
Yet people are so quick to attack, to call her a cheat and a woman beater, to say 'if I was her I would do the right thing and just pull out of boxing' after ONE TEST.
And this has nothing to do with whether she should be allowed to compete, that wasn't even decided by her.

"The ends justify the means", huh?

The people posting the pics of Michelle's crotch didn't think that she had the right to be where she was. They, too, thought that she was covering up her actually being a man so they thought they were justified in doing so.

I wish that were true, but Semenya won gold in London 2012. Its been an issue ever since they stopped doing routine sex testing (which involves a cheek swab, nothing more)

“Because I have seen this debate everywhere, in the media, on other forum sites, amongst friends. It's something I'm particularly interested in, partly due to my love of sport and also due to my interest in biology and social psychology as a close friend works in this field. I therefore tend to lap up the media on this. Mumsnet definitely isn't representative of what I've seen elsewhere or amongst friends, which has been far more mixed in terms of views.
Mumsnet is notoriously anti-trans and feminist, its quite understandable that it won't be representative of society as a whole.”

And I am in a similar position but instead of social psychology, they are doctors and specialists. And sports people included. And amongst my discussions not one person thinks male athletes who have gone through male puberty at all should be playing sport in the female sports categories. So I can say that your opinion is not representative. I have only a few friends who are ‘feminists’ as you wish to disparage them through your denigration of them there with the ‘anti-trans’.

Besides which, opinion polls in the UK also agree that male people with male pubertal advantage to any degree should not be in female sports. Several other countries have that opinion poll result too.

I would say from the language you use that you have your own prejudices that you have brought to the thread.

Do you think it's possible that it might be quite difficult for her to believe she is male. She was told she was born a girl, raised a girl, told by family she's a girl, trained as a female boxer, told by coaches she is a girl, supported by her county as a woman, and dedicated her whole life to women's boxing?
Not to mention the huge cultural differences between us and Algerians, their views on trans, and also considering her religion and faith. God created her this way. You only have to listen to her speak to realise the huge cultural gulf between her and your average Brit, and why it might be very difficult for us to put ourselves in her shoes.
Yet people are so quick to attack, to call her a cheat and a woman beater, to say 'if I was her I would do the right thing and just pull out of boxing' after ONE TEST.
And this has nothing to do with whether she should be allowed to compete, that wasn't even decided by her.

It wasn't one test. It was two independent tests.

Khelif presents as male in every adult picture I've seen. No I don't believe he thinks of himself as female.

And yes pictures aren't good enough evidence but you are taking child pictures of evidence so...

You're referring to opinion polls that talk about trans issues. This isn't a trans issue, it is very different, but many people aren't aware of that.

You've clearly also brought your own prejudices to the thread, your experience is different to mine and that's fine.
However, it is quite obvious that Mumsnet isn't representative of society as a whole, seeing as Mumsnet is majority female, and society isn't! So even if you don't agree that Mumsnet is notorious for being anti trans, and has quite strong feminist views, it doesn't take a PHD to realise it's not a representative sample of society!

It might be difficult but saying 'you know you failed the previous test and couldn't compete because you're biologically male, you're no longer allowed to box women. However feel free to try out for male boxing and here is a therapists number to help you process this'

It is difficult for people who are pursuing sporting career and then receive a diagnosis of any serious medical condition to come to terms with it and accept it but they have to. We don't reorganized the whole nature of sport to allow someone with cancer to compete at elite level or someone with rheumatoid arthritis or polio. They have to accept the material reality of their condition. Why should that be any different because the diagnosis is a DSD?

You're finding it so hard to accept the facts so try to make out that someone being biologically male is 'alt-right' and a single twitter post about a topic that is in every news outlet must mean someone is trawling through twitter for hours. Either accept the facts and grow up or go and play with your rainbow flags and let the grown ups talk about how wring it is for men to hit women for entertainment

GREAT post

I believe they are genetically male and have the competitive advantages that come with that.

Saying the following is not mutually exclusive to having empathy to what is likely to be a difficult situation for the individuals.

It’s cheating
Therefore it’s fraud
It’s a failure of safeguarding
It’s not what was intended by inclusivity

Your description of rural Algeria is also conjecture.

Mumsnet is majority female, and society isn't
Actually it is about 51% of the population is female, a small majority but a majority none the less.

Do you think it might be difficult for the women put in the ring with males to know that they are going to be risking their health, possibly their lives?

Are you seeing anything female physically?

All athletes have to deal with the risk of health complications preventing them competing.

They could have an injury, develop a condition…

These athletes have a similar journey. It’s not insurmountable. It means nothing about their life outside competitions. It just means they can’t compete with women. They can spar, compete against men… but not women.

I have no objection or criticism if they choose to live as women. I do object to them accessing women's sports. The thing that disqualifies them (or should) is that they are NOT WOMEN.

Will that do for you? I've performed some linguistic gymnastics to not call them 'male' but I shouldn't have to.

If what you really mean is that we should afford them some basic human respect, then no, because they've chosen to use the DSD to their advantage (by punching women).

Yet people are so quick to attack, to call her a cheat and a woman beater, to say 'if I was her I would do the right thing and just pull out of boxing' after ONE TEST

If Khelif has a male DSD, they would have found out before the sex test. While yes, it is difficult for a person finding out they’re the opposite sex and have a medical condition, that doesn’t mean they’re entitled to push on regardless in women’s sports. They’d have found out around puberty so had plenty of time to discreetly withdraw/swap to male sports/whatever.

Why so angry at me? I literally ASKED who had agreed with the IBA? I didn't say I agreed with the IOC!

WickieRoy · Today 15:47

I think we don't actually know much about the facts, just a lot of supposition.I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

What about the word of two different laboratories, in two different countries, both approved by the Court of Arbitration in Sport?

Why do you trust the corrupt IOC, which has little to no experience of running boxing competitions?

What about the WBO? They have seen the laboratory reports and agree that the two boxers are male and should be excluded.

If you want to complain about corrupt boxing authorities, you'll need a lot of time. In England and Scotland, the local, regional and national authority people are all making lots of money. The BBBC is also renowned for it, as are all of the international versions.

I'm from rural Algeria 🙄

@ailicis if you have xy chromosomes you're a man so they're men, regardless of how they've been brought up. I will also call men pretending to be women men, regardless on how they live their lives.

If the powers that be refuse to take simple steps to clarify something as consequential as this - there will be speculation.

The IOC could easily put this to bed - but they won't. There are implications for all competitors as a result of this negligence.